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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Jericoke on May 12, 2019, 09:55:40 PM

Title: Spain 2019 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Jericoke on May 12, 2019, 09:55:40 PM
A fairly straightforward affair, not much in the way of towering heroes, not wallowing zeroes.

Heroes
Hamilton shows he is human by being soundly defeated by his teammate in qualifying.  Then shows he is a champion by owning race day.

Zeroes
Norris.  Ambitious passing attempt on Stroll might be forgiven as a racing incident, but bringing half the gravel trap onto the track isn't.

Grosjean.  Treating the track boundaries like guidelines you can ignore is one of the reasons people think you don't belong in F1.


I'm not one to call for changes to sport to stop Mercedes dominance.  Who would compete in a sport where you're penalized for winning?  All the same, SOMETHING has to be done.  Winning F1 races with effortless margins isn't going to attract fans, and it's not going to sell cars.  Whatever Mercedes is doing right needs to be copied by the other teams.  Clearly that's easier said than done, but there has to be some way to transfer that expertise and clockwork professionalism down the grid.
Title: Re: Spain 2019 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on May 12, 2019, 10:37:39 PM
Isn't there a rule about leaving a car width? Stroll went right to the curb when Norris was clearly along side. Same with K-Mag and Seanz on Grosjean. I'm tired of drivers giving the other guy a choice: Go off track or crash us out.
Title: Re: Spain 2019 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Luke on May 13, 2019, 08:04:12 AM
Heroes:

Hamilton- Drove a faultless race, not much to add.

Verstappen- Beat the two Ferraris, this is the type of driver he can be when not hitting other cars.

Russell- Great lap in qualifying, the closest the team has been to the other cars.  He's a star in the making.

Zeroes:

Barcelona- It is a dull old track.

Ferrari- Dominated in pre season here, yet showed very little pace in the race. 

Stroll- Leave space for cars, it is polite and required. 

Kubica- Sadly I think there is little speed left in him.  Due to rustiness or his injuries I'm not sure, but his come back has so far been disappointing.
Title: Re: Spain 2019 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: John S on May 13, 2019, 10:07:44 AM
Isn't there a rule about leaving a car width? Stroll went right to the curb when Norris was clearly along side. Same with K-Mag and Seanz on Grosjean. I'm tired of drivers giving the other guy a choice: Go off track or crash us out.

Whilst that's true on straights, Lonny, however there is no such rule for corners, it's accepted that cars will want to take the racing line at corner exit, sometimes 2 into one just wont go.
IMHO Lando was not sufficiently alongside Stroll to stop him taking normal line on corner exit, so he should have backed out.
 Below I've posted some supporting material, from F1metrics website, about how the race Stewards are likely to view such incidents; and more importantly the lack of rules once the corner is in play.  :swoon: 

Who owns the racing line [in a corner]?
The most complicated cases naturally arise once we leave the straight and get into a corner. Both drivers would ideally like to the follow the quickest possible line — the racing line — but there may not be physical space for both drivers to do this. At the same time, drivers would like to obstruct one another as much as possible.
Some of you might be surprised to learn that once a corner begins, the FIA sporting regulations have almost nothing to say, besides ruling that drivers must remain within the track limits! Here, the sporting regulations defer to long-established norms for racing, which may not be known by all fans, and which contain significant grey areas.

5. Disputes over the apex
Consider the textbook method for overtaking in a corner: the attacker takes an inside line, gets alongside the defender in the braking zone, and beats the defender to the apex. If the attacker is ahead at the apex, there is no dispute over ownership of the racing line. The defender must yield. But what if the attacker is only partially alongside? Who owns the apex then?
Different racing series have their own criteria for how far alongside an attacker must be to have a claim to the apex. In Formula 1, the norms have been explored and refined over the years as a result of drivers like Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher pushing the boundaries and exploiting any gray areas. Today, it is generally accepted that the attacker must be at least halfway alongside the defender when they reach the apex to have a reasonable claim to this piece of track. Moreover, the attacker should not have achieved this position by carrying too much speed to make the corner  — this method is called dive-bombing.
                                       -------

7. Going around the outside
A defender who is overtaken on the inside will sometimes try to hold their position using the outside line. Alternatively, an attacker may try to overtake around the outside against a defender who covers the inside line. Some of the greatest overtaking maneuvers in the sport’s history have been achieved using this method.
If the driver going around the outside is already more than half a car length ahead by the apex, they are entitled to cut in to the inside along the racing line, as per case 5 above. An example is Nelson Piquet’s incredible four-wheel drift around the outside of Ayrton Senna in the 1986 Hungarian Grand Prix.
If the driver going around the outside is not sufficiently far ahead to take the racing line on apex, they can continue on an outside line. In this case, a potential dispute arises at corner exit. The driver on the outside naturally wants to continue their trajectory along the outside, while the driver on the inside wants to take a quicker straighter line by running out to the edge of the track. Who owns that piece of track on corner exit? Who is to blame in the event of a collision there?

Debates over this situation go back many years. In the 1977 Dutch Grand Prix, Mario Andretti stuck it out on the outside of the Tarzan hairpin, resulting in a collision with James Hunt, who was on the racing line and slightly ahead of Andretti. The two drivers saw the event very differently.
Modern consensus would put Andretti at fault. The guiding principle is that the driver on the outside should be at least level (front axle in line with front axle) with the driver on the inside to have a claim to the racing line on corner exit. Depending on the type of corner and the cars involved, either the outside or inside line may be quicker through the corner, meaning the driver on the outside may gain or lose ground from corner entry to corner exit. It is relative positions of the cars at exit — not at entry or apex — that is therefore crucial in judging these cases.
If the driver on the inside is behind at corner exit, they must leave space for the driver on the outside.
If the driver on the inside is ahead at corner exit, it is the duty of the driver on the outside to back out or take evasive action to avoid a collision.
the inside is free to drift out towards the outside on exit. While they are expected to approximately follow the racing line — but not exactly, since they enter the corner on a tighter trajectory to a normal racing line — they have some freedom in selecting how aggressively they close out the other driver. Just how aggressive they can be falls into perhaps the most controversial grey area in modern racing.
Title: Re: Spain 2019 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Luke on May 13, 2019, 10:14:56 AM
Until it is inevitably taken down, here is the Stroll/Norris crash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8eapR81OeA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8eapR81OeA)
Title: Re: Spain 2019 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: rmassart on May 13, 2019, 11:58:01 AM
I felt this was more Norris than Stroll's fault, although ultimately a racing accident. If you're on the racing line (which Stroll was), I don't think you have to make room for a guy half a car length behind you - it's your line.

As for Grosjean, I don't understand how we was not punished with at least a drive through penalty for taking the short cut through the chicane two (or was it three?) times.  He might not have gained an advantage on the car in front, but the didn't lose his place to the car behind despite going off track. This seems wrong to me. Why is this guy still in F1? I don't know his history before F1, but he's hardly set the world on fire the last few seasons. He's rarely been quicker than his teammates since joining and he's aging rather poorly as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Spain 2019 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Willy on May 13, 2019, 12:21:34 PM
Heroes
Hamilton 'nuff said

Zeros
Tired of watching Merc run away with it all every race this season
Barcelona
Mostly boring event on a track that they all know so well as they all test there. Should not be a race held there as there is no challenge for the drivers
Title: Re: Spain 2019 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Jericoke on May 13, 2019, 01:52:23 PM
I felt this was more Norris than Stroll's fault, although ultimately a racing accident. If you're on the racing line (which Stroll was), I don't think you have to make room for a guy half a car length behind you - it's your line.

As for Grosjean, I don't understand how we was not punished with at least a drive through penalty for taking the short cut through the chicane two (or was it three?) times.  He might not have gained an advantage on the car in front, but the didn't lose his place to the car behind despite going off track. This seems wrong to me. Why is this guy still in F1? I don't know his history before F1, but he's hardly set the world on fire the last few seasons. He's rarely been quicker than his teammates since joining and he's aging rather poorly as far as I can tell.

I agree about Norris/Stroll being a racing incident, but Norris should know better than to bring all that gravel back on track, which makes him my zero from the crash.

As for Grosjean, F1 is a very political sport.  I don't think Gene Haas wants a driver tied to someone else's 'academy' programme.  So that rules out drivers like Ocon, Russell or Kvyat.  If you can't get the best young drivers, it leaves the best veteran drivers.  Certainly Kimi and Ricciardo were options, so I don't know if there were discussions or not. 

As I've said otherwise, Haas comes from the world of NASCAR, a sport with a culture of loyalty.  When Haas was starting out he needed veteran drivers who were willing to sacrifice their chance at a WDC, which Grosjean did.  He was the driver they needed at the time, and was crucial to their progress.  Is it possible another driver could have produce the same result?  Probably, but they didn't.  Grosjean was the man, and Gene won't forget it. 

F1 is very much a 'what have you done for me lately' sport, so when someone sticks with people out of loyalty it sticks out.  Will that hurt Haas long term?  Will they end up losing races by being loyal instead of getting the best?  Maybe.  Or perhaps loyalty will help them attract top talent when openings appear. 

Ferrari, Williams and McLaren are revolving doors, how many championships is that winning?  Haas is making serious progress, and while Grosjean may be costing them points on occasion, he's not holding the team back.
Title: Re: Spain 2019 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Andy B on May 14, 2019, 09:13:35 AM

Zeroes
I'm not one to call for changes to sport to stop Mercedes dominance.  Who would compete in a sport where you're penalized for winning?  All the same, SOMETHING has to be done.  Winning F1 races with effortless margins isn't goie way to transfer that expertise and clockwork professionalism down the grid.

The opportunity is there for the others to follow Mercedes lead but historically this is how it works with Vettel and Red Bull, Micheal Schumacher with Ferrari and the list goes through the years its bad enough having false racing with the DRS let alone making all the teams the same. Mercedes rule will end just as the others have in the past and should be appreciated whilst here.
Title: Re: Spain 2019 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: rmassart on May 14, 2019, 11:40:56 AM
The question then becomes who do we think is likely to beat Mercedes, I guess after the 2021 rule changes?

I don't see Ferrari having the organisational capacity, unless they poach half the Red Bull team as they did when Schumi joined from Benetton.

Renault seem to be nowhere really at the moment.

My bets would be on Red Bull.   If Honda can really deliver a top of the class engine I think Red Bull have the best chance to produce a winning car with the new rules.

All the others are basically with no chance, being either the B-teams in terms of the engines, the manufacturers, or both.
Title: Re: Spain 2019 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: cosworth151 on May 14, 2019, 10:14:11 PM
Besides some of the things listed above:

Winners:

Real Safety Cars - The S/C lead to some of the best racing of the day.

Haas - Double Points Day!!!!!   :yahoo:  :yahoo:  :yahoo: