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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: John S on September 14, 2020, 03:25:03 PM

Title: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: John S on September 14, 2020, 03:25:03 PM
Must say I was shocked that the normally over pedantic flunkeys who constantly cajole & shepherd top 3 drivers through procedures at the end of the race allowed Lewis onto the podium with such an item of clothing.

I texted a friend at the time it spells trouble.

FIA must take action or every driver will be free to turn up with their slogan of choice in future. I know the publicity will be against the FIA when they give a penalty, but it's their or Liberty's own fault for allowing it to happen.   

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-8728395/Lewis-Hamilton-marks-Tuscan-Grand-Prix-victory-wearing-shirt-honour-Breonna-Taylor.html
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: monty on September 14, 2020, 04:15:14 PM
If they do anything more than tell him not to do it again they will open themselves up for massive negative publicity.
The slogan only becomes 'political' if you know what it referred to. I had heard about Breonna Taylor almost accidentally - the incident didn't make most of UK news. Most of the people I have spoken to had no idea what it was about and hadn't bothered to find out.

I think Lewis believes he is making a difference but I just wish he would stick to doing his job. This situation wasn't about colour and wasn't international. It was a very US specific incident and relates to Police officers over-reacting to being shot-at (if you can say 'over-react' and 'being shot at' in any truly sensible sentence!) 
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: rmassart on September 14, 2020, 04:21:44 PM
According to the BBC, the FIA sporting code say this:

Quote
The sporting code forbids competitors from "affixing to their automobiles advertising that is political or religious in nature or that is prejudicial to the interests of the FIA".

So, not sure that's in breach of the code, since the message was not affixed to the car.

I didn't see the podium live, but from the pictures I personally think the message is too direct and one sided. However, I wish more sports stars would use their media spotlight to raise awareness of issues important to them. I'm fed up with the whole politically correct thing. I agree teams shouldn't get involved, but sports personalities are human after all and lots of people use their status to seek change. Why should it be forbidden? I realise some messages might upset people and for example could drive away sponsors of the sport, but so what. Lost sponsorship is more likely to affect a driver than the sport as a whole. I'm sure I've not thought this through, but Toto Wolff probably has. The BBC said this:

Quote
Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff said on Saturday that Hamilton had the organisation's full support in his desire to highlight racial injustice and that it was up to him what T-shirts he wished to wear to demonstrate that.

Wolff said: "No question - it is entirely his decision. Whatever he does, we will support.

As monty mentions most people don't know about the Breonna Taylor incident. I didn't.  And if the media hadn't made such a fuss about Lewis's T-shirt, I still wouldn't, as I didn't watch the podium celebrations.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: John S on September 14, 2020, 04:54:56 PM
I feel this has to be penalised if only to prevent others rocking up at a podium with their own slogans.

I see no problem with any driver wearing this or any message T-shirt around the paddock or immediately after they win a race.

I cannot agree to using the podium, they should respect the ceremony as a presentation of trophies for the motor race and not try and hijack it for whatever reason.

I'd say send a team representative to collect your trophy if you can't respect the podium rather than scoring a political point, however obscure or laudable that point it might be..... - Oh no wait a minute you can't do that  :nono: you'll be penalised as the podium is an important part of procedure that drivers agree to when they get their super licences and pay to enter F1.

Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: rmassart on September 14, 2020, 08:20:25 PM
I cannot agree to using the podium, they should respect the ceremony as a presentation of trophies for the motor race and not try and hijack it for whatever reason.

Despite my earlier comment, I think I agree with this. The podium is the wrong place for this.

Although I still wish drivers showed more willingness to stick their necks out and make a point, but of course if there's no penalty it would be a cheap point. On the other hand, if Lewis knows he's going to be banned for the next trace and still wears the t-shirt, I would respect that.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on September 14, 2020, 08:43:32 PM
Of all the 'Justice for (insert name here)' cases being tried in the Press and on the street, this one is the most complex. There are many issues involved beyond the White Cop shoots Black Suspect trope. There is a serious problem when Blacks (and to a lesser extent Hispanics and Asians) are afraid of being stopped for a traffic offense. If you didn't grow up as a minority that many are prejudiced against, I don't think you can understand what this means to Lewis. The FIA can't win here unless Lewis broke a very specific rule that they can cite. I'm not in favor of treating the podium as some kind of sacred place. It's where you get a prize for competing in a game played with cars. A game whose playing field is virtually segregated whether by chance or design. If the drivers feel the need to promote a cause let 'em. Who cares?
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Dare on September 14, 2020, 10:17:07 PM
This happened in the city I live in. Hamilton needs
to look at the facts before running his mouth. I'm
considering rather I want to watch F1 any longer.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Jericoke on September 15, 2020, 12:59:42 AM
This happened in the city I live in. Hamilton needs
to look at the facts before running his mouth. I'm
considering rather I want to watch F1 any longer.

I know this may not be the place to respond Dare, but the only version I've heard is that armed men broke into her home while she was sleeping, she was killed in the cross fire, and no effort has been made to hold anyone accountable.

If you want to PM me the local version of events, or even send me a link, it would be much appreciated.

Unfortunately the modern world only reacts to grandiose gestures.  If Lewis Hamilton mentions it in an interview, who knows who's going to see it?  Right or wrong, he wants this conversation to be had, and there's no other way he can make it happen.  If F1 fines him, he'll pay the fine, and go double with his next win.  If F1 deducts points, it will destroy the sport. I know that Hamilton is walking a fine edge, he doesn't want to sacrifice his career for this, but he doesn't want to be seen taking the easy way out.  If push comes to shove, he'll sacrifice his career, and take F1 down with him.  An accommodation will be made behind closed doors. The winner of future races will be given an opportunity to make a 'profound statement' of some sort, and the podium will go back to being cathartic frivolity.  (I do think that the podium has become less interesting when they moved the interviews BEFORE the presentation.  The drivers have cooled off, and literally had time to reflect on the race.  Watching them still full of energy and pure emotion was so much better)
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on September 15, 2020, 04:30:06 AM
If they haven't hidden it behind a paywall, here is the New York Times report:

https://www.nytimes.com/article/breonna-taylor-police.html (https://www.nytimes.com/article/breonna-taylor-police.html)
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Robem64 on September 15, 2020, 07:42:06 AM
At the risk of being controversial I do question Hamilton's true commitment to whatever cause he believes he's supporting. The thing he didn't do, which would have made the biggest statement, was to boycott the GP in Spa when many of his US sports buddies did the same. Now that would have been a very strong message to make the world sit up and think a little more.  I also think failing to turn up for one of the anti-racism "shows of unity" was also pretty poor for someone who says he is so passionate about it.

Is wearing a sloganed t-shirt really going to change the world? If he wants to truly inspire and make change then I think a man in his position needs to think outside the box a little more.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: monty on September 15, 2020, 08:45:56 AM
The NYT report is exactly what I had heard and I find it hard to find any justification or mitigation for what these Police Officers did - it seems they were really bad at their job. However, I do dot see that this is a White on Black issue. Just a sad indictment of the US gun laws and poor Police training.
Lewis is someone that believes he should use his fame to highlight good causes and he has a wonderful record of putting his money where his mouth is regarding charities, etc. We can't deny that his Slogan T-shirt has raised awareness - here we are discussing it. However, I still wish he would keep this type of controversial 'lobbying' away from his sport. One of the good things about most sport is that it is fairly inclusive and provides some escapism from the crap that goes on in our World. 
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Ian on September 15, 2020, 06:19:03 PM
I'd never heard anything about it either, when I saw Lewis's t-shirt I thought who the heck is that and what's it all about.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Scott on September 15, 2020, 09:53:21 PM
I couldnít care a less what t-shirt any driver wears and where. But I would think Merc and their sponsors might have some concern that their driver is holding a trophy wearing anything besides sponsorship.  Maybe they donít.  If my companyís name is supposed to be emblazoned across his chest, Iíd be pretty p*ssed if it was covered with anything else, especially in a year when many sponsors will be trying to figure out the value of it while the stands are empty and televised ratings probably arenít great.

I have my own opinions on the Breonna Taylor killing, but nothing anyone puts in a t-shirt is going to change that.

Iím not sure anything should be done by the FIA.  Simpler to leave it to the teams to sort out.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Jericoke on September 15, 2020, 09:58:33 PM
I'd never heard anything about it either, when I saw Lewis's t-shirt I thought who the heck is that and what's it all about.

What I do find a tad confusing about Hamilton's actions... the American athletes were originally protesting how American authorities were treating American citizens.  Thus the symbolism of kneeling during the American national anthem.  (If you're not American, you don't get how big a deal this is.  A large number of Americans consider the anthem playing to be a holy moment, and you're damned to Hell if you disrupt it.  If you are American, you don't get how the rest of us don't consider the national anthem quite so seriously.  We see it as a moment of patriotism, sure, but we're not going to Hell because we forgot stand up while some old song gets played.) 

Given how little American involvement there is in F1, Hamilton's protests aren't really striking the same chord.  I applaud him trying to get the issues out there, but I think with his audience focusing on the the more general 'we race as one' would be more effective.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Andy B on September 15, 2020, 10:14:13 PM
At the risk of being controversial I do question Hamilton's true commitment to whatever cause he believes he's supporting. The thing he didn't do, which would have made the biggest statement, was to boycott the GP in Spa when many of his US sports buddies did the same. Now that would have been a very strong message to make the world sit up and think a little more.  I also think failing to turn up for one of the anti-racism "shows of unity" was also pretty poor for someone who says he is so passionate about it.

Is wearing a sloganed t-shirt really going to change the world? If he wants to truly inspire and make change then I think a man in his position needs to think outside the box a little more.

Whereas in the US all the NBA, I believe it was them, boycotted the games on LH would have been boycotting Spa so I sort of understand why he didn't.
As much as I agree with with his stance I believe the podium should kept for F1 the "T" shirt could have been worn during the press interviews.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Alianora La Canta on September 16, 2020, 01:54:17 PM
The issue is not in the Sporting Regulations, it's in Article 1.2 of the FIA Statutes. Which says:

Quote
The FIA shall refrain from manifesting discrimination on account of race, skin colour, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic or social origin, language, religion, philosophical or political opinion, family situation or disability in the course of its activities and from taking any action in this respect.

This covers anything that happens at a FIA-organised event that the FIA could be perceived as the FIA condoning or repressing something the Article indicates it should not, regardless of whether or not an FIA staff member did it.

Strictly speaking, the rule breach wouldn't be in Lewis wearing the T-shirt; it would be in the FIA not penalising Lewis for doing so. That's why no team has protested, because the protest window closes far too early to ascertain whether the FIA was going to react to Lewis' attire (the FIA's allowed to launch cases any time until the results are sealed for the year in December) and besides, only the FIA could be an affected party by Lewis' actions according to the rulebook.

I think the FIA would prefer not to penalise Lewis if it can feasibly do so, because if it was truly upset by the attire, there was ample time for the stewards to demand Lewis' presence for an explanation and an on-the-spot decision. However, I am not convinced Article 1.2 gives the FIA that scope.

(In case anyone is wondering, the reason the Sporting Regulations have the superfluous rule about political stuff on cars is because a team that shall remain nameless Ferrari decided in 2013 that it was a good idea to put a subtle political logo on its cars one race (about releasing Italian sailors who had strayed into Iranian waters and been subsequently arrested). Said team wriggled out of a penalty because the stewards could not absolutely prove the logo's political nature...)

If Mercedes or its sponsors had a problem with the T-shirt, that is considered a strictly internal issue. Mercedes are backing Lewis all the way, though.

I'd never heard anything about it either, when I saw Lewis's t-shirt I thought who the heck is that and what's it all about.

What I do find a tad confusing about Hamilton's actions... the American athletes were originally protesting how American authorities were treating American citizens.  Thus the symbolism of kneeling during the American national anthem.  (If you're not American, you don't get how big a deal this is.  A large number of Americans consider the anthem playing to be a holy moment, and you're damned to Hell if you disrupt it.  If you are American, you don't get how the rest of us don't consider the national anthem quite so seriously.  We see it as a moment of patriotism, sure, but we're not going to Hell because we forgot stand up while some old song gets played.) 

There are other countries where disrespecting the anthem is a big deal, though in the other cases, it is assumed the entire punishment will be delivered in this life rather than any future one. Namely, because one's fellows will regard one as unpatriotic and potentially racist against their own nation. Two of them are Italy and Russia, which explains some of the pattern seen among the standers during the "End Racism" pre-race protests. (Though Italy is sufficiently divided that I've seen Italians arguing with each other between the stances of "Kneeling is racist", "Standing is racist" and "Why is this worth arguing about; we should honour the anthem in ways that make sense to us and don't prevent others from doing likewise?" Said arguments have gone as far as the Italian parliament...)
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Willy on September 17, 2020, 06:32:33 PM
I see from a sponsor standpoint that there could be an issue if you are paying big bucks to have your logo featured and it gets covered by a T-shirt then you could complain.
Toto stood and watched the entire time Lewis wore the shirt and appeared to not be concerned. If he was, he did a very good job of hiding it.
I can also see the FIA will want to have a word with Lewis or others may start to use the platform for their own issues.
Liberty need to tread lightly as Lewis has a global impact, and he knows it, so if he decides do flex that muscle, guess who's side the fans will be on?
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Jericoke on September 18, 2020, 03:12:51 PM
I see from a sponsor standpoint that there could be an issue if you are paying big bucks to have your logo featured and it gets covered by a T-shirt then you could complain.
Toto stood and watched the entire time Lewis wore the shirt and appeared to not be concerned. If he was, he did a very good job of hiding it.
I can also see the FIA will want to have a word with Lewis or others may start to use the platform for their own issues.
Liberty need to tread lightly as Lewis has a global impact, and he knows it, so if he decides do flex that muscle, guess who's side the fans will be on?

Exactly.  Lewis knows what he's doing, Toto (and by extension Mercedes top brass and major sponsorship) knows to leave it be.  Nobody wants the bad press that goes with complaining your logo is covered up for 10 seconds.

It's unlikely to be a last second addition, Lewis had to have the shirt available, which means someone at Mercedes had to know about the plan, which means Lewis and someone (maybe Toto, most likely a PR employee with direction from Toto) had a private discussion about it.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Alianora La Canta on September 21, 2020, 02:25:32 PM
I see from a sponsor standpoint that there could be an issue if you are paying big bucks to have your logo featured and it gets covered by a T-shirt then you could complain.
Toto stood and watched the entire time Lewis wore the shirt and appeared to not be concerned. If he was, he did a very good job of hiding it.
I can also see the FIA will want to have a word with Lewis or others may start to use the platform for their own issues.
Liberty need to tread lightly as Lewis has a global impact, and he knows it, so if he decides do flex that muscle, guess who's side the fans will be on?

Exactly.  Lewis knows what he's doing, Toto (and by extension Mercedes top brass and major sponsorship) knows to leave it be.  Nobody wants the bad press that goes with complaining your logo is covered up for 10 seconds.

It's unlikely to be a last second addition, Lewis had to have the shirt available, which means someone at Mercedes had to know about the plan, which means Lewis and someone (maybe Toto, most likely a PR employee with direction from Toto) had a private discussion about it.

Also a Merc staffer had to hand him the T-shirt post-race, because he was slightly late to the interview area and the only people who could have come outside that might plausibly have conveyed the T-shirt is someone with a Mercedes paddock pass.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Willy on September 22, 2020, 07:34:02 PM
Very good point Ali.
He didn't have the t-shirt bundled up in the car all race just so he could spring it on the press at the last minute. This was planned and approved or someone from Merc would be handed their papers.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Dare on September 23, 2020, 01:05:41 PM
The finding if the Police Officers will be charged
in the Taylor shooting today. Many streets are
already closed and the Police are ready for a riot
to start. I'm afraid it's going to get nasty here.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: monty on September 23, 2020, 01:29:41 PM
Quote
I'm afraid it's going to get nasty here
Let's hope you are fearing the worst but you get the best but it seems (everywhere) the mobs are just looking for an excuse to cause public unrest!
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Jericoke on September 23, 2020, 02:32:27 PM
Quote
I'm afraid it's going to get nasty here
Let's hope you are fearing the worst but you get the best but it seems (everywhere) the mobs are just looking for an excuse to cause public unrest!

The mobs aren't creating unrest.  A happy satisfied secure person doesn't just up and join a mob.  The unrest is being created by society (can argue about whether it's the government, poor parenting, public agitators (likely a combination of all three)), but the 'mob' isn't out to cause trouble, the mob is out because trouble has been created.

I would charge the officers, it's prudent given the situation.  Even if they're 100% exonerated through a fair process (and awarded damages for their trouble), it shows that the situation is being taken seriously.  If police complain it means they have to think twice before shooting someone... get me the world's smallest violin.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Dare on September 23, 2020, 06:56:16 PM
I think most mobs could care less about the cause,it's
just another reason to loot.

As far as the Police Officers remember taylor's bf shot a
Officer and when you fire on the Police there's usually a bad
outcome.

I'm not going to get into it but there's a lot more details
than the public hears. Details have been posted on different
news sites only to disappear the next day.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Alianora La Canta on September 24, 2020, 10:25:49 AM
On this occasion I can see exactly why there is a riot. The police didn't even try to fill the report in (most of it is blank, including most of the things that were being testified about), some of what was written in is known to be false (claiming no forced entry when it was confirmed that a battering ram was used) and the court barely even addressed the killing, only worrying about the possibility other people in the flat than Breonna might have been injured. Even though Breonna was never the one covered by the warrant. It is reasonable to question whether the officers' verbal testimony is truthful when their own written testimony contradicts it (let alone the observations of witnesses). Yet that was brushed aside.

Hard to say the rioters started anarchy when courts make it clear through their actions that anarchy is already officially sanctioned, provided it's practiced by people in uniform.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: monty on September 24, 2020, 11:14:39 AM
Protests can be justified - riots cannot. There have already been two Police Officers shot in the riots today. This is just mob rule.
The USA has some serious problems with training of their Police officers but if you have a gun and somebody shoots at you, the most likely response is to shoot back!! For a guy like me, born and living in the UK, the problem seems to be that too many people in the States have guns. I know that isn't going to change but a gun is such an impersonal way of snuffing out life - so easy to just blast wildly.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: John S on September 24, 2020, 11:26:04 AM
On this occasion I can see exactly why there is a riot. The police didn't even try to fill the report in (most of it is blank, including most of the things that were being testified about), some of what was written in is known to be false (claiming no forced entry when it was confirmed that a battering ram was used) and the court barely even addressed the killing, only worrying about the possibility other people in the flat than Breonna might have been injured. Even though Breonna was never the one covered by the warrant. It is reasonable to question whether the officers' verbal testimony is truthful when their own written testimony contradicts it (let alone the observations of witnesses). Yet that was brushed aside.

Hard to say the rioters started anarchy when courts make it clear through their actions that anarchy is already officially sanctioned, provided it's practiced by people in uniform.

I think you're forgetting that the cops turned up with a sanctioned warrant to enter those premises. Then one of the occupants fired at and injured one of the officers as they entered, this much is admitted by the man who shot at them.

Sure there are holes in the logs and yes the response in certain parts has been deemed over the top, but firing at police in a drugs raid is gonna bring return fire sure as eggs are eggs.

If we try to scrupulously apply polite courtroom niceties into the few seconds that it takes to respond to a mortal threat, like being fired at for doing your job, then we're all doomed.

I think most of what just happened might be a blank to me also if I was in a gunfight that seemed a life or death situation. You can run all the sims you like with cops/soldiers on how to react and deal with mortal danger, but when it comes each person has differing responses and in the milliseconds needed to perhaps live or die strange things may, and indeed often do occur. Everyone is an individual after all.

Police and soldiers are just the same as the rest of us with hopes, fears and everything else. Without backing from a mostly silent majority who on earth would want to be a police officer?

Consider what the alternative might look like if the calls to either disband or defund many police forces in the US go through. The next meadow always looks greener from afar. 

   
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Dare on September 24, 2020, 12:54:43 PM
One little tidbit the media fails to say is Taylor
wasn't a EMT at the time of her death. Depending
on which story you believe she was either fired
or quit 3 years ago. But every story has a picture
of her in a EMT uniform.  Hopefully the whole story
will eventually come out  and just not rumors why
they were there.

Next time need help who are you calling the Police or the
rioters[protesters]
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Jericoke on September 24, 2020, 04:52:45 PM

Next time need help who are you calling the Police or the
rioters[protesters]

Depends if I'm being attacked by police or rioters I suppose!

It's silly that the only two choices are paramilitary response, or anarchy.  Where's the middle ground?

Could you imagine an F1 car where the only choices were full throttle or full brakes?

Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: John S on September 24, 2020, 05:14:24 PM

Could you imagine an F1 car where the only choices were full throttle or full brakes?

I thought with the amount of downforce in F1 now that's what it amounts to these days for most drivers.  :D :D 
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Dare on September 24, 2020, 05:38:41 PM

Next time need help who are you calling the Police or the
rioters[protesters]



Depends if I'm being attacked by police or rioters I suppose!

It's silly that the only two choices are paramilitary response, or anarchy.  Where's the middle ground?

Could you imagine an F1 car where the only choices were full throttle or full brakes?


Maybe the rioters in Canada are friendlier than the
one south of your border. Many protesters here are
bused in and paid for their friendly protesting.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on September 24, 2020, 05:47:23 PM

Could you imagine an F1 car where the only choices were full throttle or full brakes?

I thought with the amount of downforce in F1 now that's what it amounts to these days for most drivers.  :D :D 

I would very much like to see today's drivers in a car with the grip level of a '60's F1. They are always complaining of a lack of grip but even a Williams has far more grip than the cars of the past. They complain about tires being too hard, what if they were so hard they could do 4 races on a single set as Clark did in the Lotus 25. I think all this down force tends to level the talents of the field, preventing the really good drivers from demonstrating just how good they are.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Jericoke on September 24, 2020, 06:46:52 PM

Next time need help who are you calling the Police or the
rioters[protesters]



Depends if I'm being attacked by police or rioters I suppose!

It's silly that the only two choices are paramilitary response, or anarchy.  Where's the middle ground?

Could you imagine an F1 car where the only choices were full throttle or full brakes?


Maybe the rioters in Canada are friendlier than the
one south of your border. Many protesters here are
bused in and paid for their friendly protesting.

It could be.  We certainly have our racial issues.  Provincial level police (basically state troopers) tend to have a poor history dealing with First Nations.  Our premiere, Mike Harris, basically resigned in 2002 (was forced out knowing he would lose re-election) over a single man being shot during an occupation.  It buried his party until last year.

Why would rioters be paid/bused in?  If there's a system that allows someone to benefit from it, then people will do it.  The system is broken.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Dare on September 24, 2020, 08:49:23 PM

Next time need help who are you calling the Police or the
rioters[protesters]



Depends if I'm being attacked by police or rioters I suppose!

It's silly that the only two choices are paramilitary response, or anarchy.  Where's the middle ground?

Could you imagine an F1 car where the only choices were full throttle or full brakes?


Maybe the rioters in Canada are friendlier than the
one south of your border. Many protesters here are
bused in and paid for their friendly protesting.

It could be.  We certainly have our racial issues.  Provincial level police (basically state troopers) tend to have a poor history dealing with First Nations.  Our premiere, Mike Harris, basically resigned in 2002 (was forced out knowing he would lose re-election) over a single man being shot during an occupation.  It buried his party until last year.

Why would rioters be paid/bused in?  If there's a system that allows someone to benefit from it, then people will do it.  The system is broken.



Seeing is believing

https://crowdsondemand.com/
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Jericoke on September 25, 2020, 02:42:18 AM

Next time need help who are you calling the Police or the
rioters[protesters]



Depends if I'm being attacked by police or rioters I suppose!

It's silly that the only two choices are paramilitary response, or anarchy.  Where's the middle ground?

Could you imagine an F1 car where the only choices were full throttle or full brakes?


Maybe the rioters in Canada are friendlier than the
one south of your border. Many protesters here are
bused in and paid for their friendly protesting.

It could be.  We certainly have our racial issues.  Provincial level police (basically state troopers) tend to have a poor history dealing with First Nations.  Our premiere, Mike Harris, basically resigned in 2002 (was forced out knowing he would lose re-election) over a single man being shot during an occupation.  It buried his party until last year.

Why would rioters be paid/bused in?  If there's a system that allows someone to benefit from it, then people will do it.  The system is broken.



Seeing is believing

https://crowdsondemand.com/

I completely believe it.  Even the Beatles paid young girls to scream for the cameras.

I just mean... why would anyone do that if they couldn't get something out of it?  If they can get something out of it... what's wrong with the system that encourages it?
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Alianora La Canta on September 28, 2020, 12:00:13 PM
Busing is a common activist tactic in the USA, for pretty much every issue. This comes from a belief that sheer force of numbers helps make a political point. As such, the main things gained from it are a reputation within the group for being neigbourly and American, as well as the belief this might help persuade change. (This is known to be happening for protestors both for, and against, reform of police/race relations/discrimination, and is happening for every outlook within those beliefs). At the moment, it's happening even more because lots of protestors, for every position, are skint due to having no jobs to go to. The politicians recognise the argumentum ad populum selectively, and therefore ignore the numbers when it suits them to do so.

Paying protestors is almost exclusively associated with the sides trying to keep policing as it is and white supremacism. Some of it is believed to be coming from Russia and China, in an attempt to destabilise the USA, but the main income probably comes from Americans wanting fellow Americans to speak out their beliefs (there is evidence that paying people gets people to say things that may not even believe, let alone as much as the vigour of their protesting lets on - lots of companies can attest to this in the context of employment). Edit: Though this being America, I probably shouldn't be surprised that someone is monetising it for pure profit, at which point any position could well be employing such services.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on September 28, 2020, 07:24:00 PM
It's been shown that Trump is busing/paying people to attend his rallies.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: Dare on September 28, 2020, 08:39:32 PM
It's been shown that Trump is busing/paying people to attend his rallies.



If they get their money their lucky.
Title: Re: Lewis under investigation for Slogan T-shirt on F1 Tuscan GP podium
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on September 28, 2020, 10:32:27 PM
True.
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