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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Jericoke on September 27, 2020, 10:48:40 PM

Title: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Jericoke on September 27, 2020, 10:48:40 PM
Heroes:
Bottas.  "f*** the critics" indeed!  Bottas could be a great racer, as good as anyone in F1 today, he just needs to hone that 'killer instinct', which he clearly has.

Max. Keep your head down, drive responsibly... who is this kid?  Has the same name as a reckless motormouth who used to race for Red Bull.  "I'm just going to race my own race"; I'm glad to see him mature... now I wonder if he'll mature too much.

Perez.  When you've got nothing to lose, you really can show  what you're made of.  I wouldn't say that Racing Point has done him a favour, but I think we're going to see his best ever racing over the remainder of 2020.

Alpha Tauri.  Where did these guys come from?  Solid race from both Kvyat AND Gasly?  No one else had two drivers drive great races.  I feel like simply declaring Alpha Tauri to be a 'sister team' has made it true.

Zeroes:
Hamilton.  He's got a lot going on, maybe too much, and when all eyes are on him, his little mistakes, temper tantrums etc. seem like a big deal.  The FIA is not out to get you Mr. Hamilton.  You can't stop dead on a live race track!

Vettel.  He's in an awful place in his career and it shows. I hope a fresh start at Aston Martin puts him back at the top of F1.

Sainz. I know that the first lap of an F1 race is crazy, but as a future Ferrari driver, you should be able to handle an escape road.

Albon.  4th place in the Red Bull/AlphaTauri family isn't good enough.  Like Bottas, he's got the skill, but he can't seem to put it all together.  Hopefully he's given the time.  I feel for him as a young kid thrown in the deep end, but he knew how heartless F1 was when he was in karting and he still chose it.

Renault.  Just like everything seems to click at Alpha Tauri, Renault seems like they just can't quite deliver. 

Over all, I enjoyed the race.  Vettel's crash in Q2 added some great drama, even if we ended up with same old qualifying order.  We went a long time without first lap crashes, now we can't seem to escape them.  They do mix things up a little bit, but it feels like watching 20 squabbling children instead of the best drivers in the world.  Come on guys, you're collectively paid... what... $100 million?  Act like it.
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on September 28, 2020, 12:06:03 AM
Having raced all kinds of model cars, I know what a start feels like. Sainz is thinking that the start is the best time to pass people. Once the field strings out and gets to speed it can be near impossible. Having made a mistake, he's thinking I've got to minimize the damage, so he's pushing hard through the bollards. He was going too fast and he knew it, but big reward in positions saved if he makes it. Points to him for admitting it was his mistake, but boo for saying the corner is poorly designed. Looks like a good corner to me. A test of skill and car placement. It is what it is, deal with it.

What a difference between paranoid Hamilton and DannyRicci. Lewis spent ages on the radio complaining about the penalty, and Mercs' strategy calls. When the team informed DR he was being penalized he just said, OK I'll get it back.
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Alianora La Canta on September 28, 2020, 11:51:09 AM
Heroes:

This is difficult. I am not convinced that what I saw yesterday constitutes intentional sporting competition. However, some people were at least trying to have a race, so I will respect them by selecting some of them here (note this is not all of the options):

Perez: Pulled his Racing Point to the best position it could take despite a bad start.

Leclerc: Ditto, but for a Ferrari, and some brownie points docked for tangling with Stroll.

Bottas: Just got on with it.

Zeroes:

The FIA: Breached the FIA Statutes by giving Hamilton 2 penalties for the same incident, leaked it to the Finnish press at least 10 minutes before official announcement, and allegedly involved a Finnish commentator in the negotiations for what the penalty should be (originally there were going to be 4 penalty points issued, a blatant breach of precedent because that is what is attached to a pair of 10-second penalties, not a pair of 5-second penalties), and the only logical reason for that would be to ban Lewis from the next race). The points were later converted to a fine after negotiation with Mercedes, which is also against the regulations (either the fine is required to replace both the penalty points and the linked time penalties, or it is added on top of them, depending on whether Bono's instruction to Lewis is treated as mitigation for Lewis' actions or a separate infraction - either would have been permitted in precedent, but not a "compromise").

The cherry on the cake is that according to the regulations the FIA cited, Lewis' action was legal! (I take Jericoke's point that starting from that specific point was inadvisable on safety grounds, but that's the FIA's fault for badly-written regulations and/or permitting a venue to have a dangerous practice start area, not Lewis' or Mercedes' for following the letter of the regulations).

Chocolate sprinkles on the cake: Daniel Ricciardo vs Romain Grosjean. Daniel couldn't reach the chicane and Romain obviously could (how else did he hit the polystyrene barrier? Not to mention the other 7 times he skipped the corner in a 53-lap race, according to Channel 4). Guess who was penalised? The instruction was to follow the chicane, not demolish it. Or the wall (Carlos, I'm looking at you).

Finnish journalists at CMore (the Finnish broadcaster who received the leak): Should have whistleblown the leak on the FIA's anonymous tip-off line, not used it in a desperate big to steal a headline. (If they absolutely had to steal a headline, it should have regarded the leak's existence, not the contents of the leak, especially since said leak was less newsworthy).

Sainz: If it was truly impossible to make the chicane, do what Romain did later, obliterate the chicane and take the 5-second penalty for ignoring instructions. That would have been far more advisable than the DNF and messing up lots of other people's races. Dangerous, selfish and pointless (literally and metaphorically).
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: cosworth151 on September 28, 2020, 02:08:16 PM
In addition to the above mentioned:

Heroes -

K-Mag: Got the maximum out of his Haas. He fought hard but clean for position all day.

Zeroes -

Spectrum: My internet feed was down for the first half of the race.  :'(

Sochi: Not an F1 level venue.

I won't mention the FIA because:

 A. Ali did a fine job of analyzing what happened . I couldn't have done it without using unprintable language.
B. Saying that the FIA makes some mistakes is like saying that a skunk's smell is slightly unpleasant.
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: rmassart on September 28, 2020, 04:19:45 PM
I saw this on the BBC website about Hamilton's practice starts:

Quote
He had been told to try to find a spot a little further forward, with minimal rubber, to better reflect conditions on the grid, so the car's electronics could be tuned more accurately.

Whilst I don't follow the legal aspects of whether what he did was within the rules or not, I find the reason for these practice starts annoying. Does everything really have to be fine tuned like this? Surely these drivers are good enough to make decent start without fine tuning electronics?
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Scott on September 28, 2020, 06:46:20 PM
Additional Zeroes:  The Russians packed into the stands and mostly mask-less.  Hope that Russian vaccine works! 
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on September 28, 2020, 07:28:58 PM
The leak to the Finnish press couldn't have anything to do with Mika Salo being the driver steward could it?   ;)
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Willy on September 28, 2020, 08:42:54 PM
There has been lots of goods points made by others so I will not chime in on the Lewisgate crap. (See what I did there?)

I was surprised to see bums in seats without masks but not really concidering it was Russia and they live on another planet with their own rules.

Sochi is a crap track and nothing exciting about it. Just a flat run around a bunch of empty overpriced buildings.
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Jericoke on September 28, 2020, 08:45:13 PM
I saw this on the BBC website about Hamilton's practice starts:

Quote
He had been told to try to find a spot a little further forward, with minimal rubber, to better reflect conditions on the grid, so the car's electronics could be tuned more accurately.

Whilst I don't follow the legal aspects of whether what he did was within the rules or not, I find the reason for these practice starts annoying. Does everything really have to be fine tuned like this? Surely these drivers are good enough to make decent start without fine tuning electronics?

They're always looking for ways to 'penalize' the top teams.  Making the front row start with less rubber on the track sounds like an easy win for the FIA on that front.
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Andy B on September 28, 2020, 09:54:30 PM
It seems the powers that be are always looking for ways to spice up race, reverse grids being one, so to hand out penalties with stop go's does them no good.
VB is not good enough to beat LH in a straight fight which has been shown many times so unfortunately for hime he is not WC material but then few on the grid are.
I am impressed that LH has the spare mental capacity at 200 mph to complain about anything!
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Alianora La Canta on September 29, 2020, 11:34:43 AM
I saw this on the BBC website about Hamilton's practice starts:

Quote
He had been told to try to find a spot a little further forward, with minimal rubber, to better reflect conditions on the grid, so the car's electronics could be tuned more accurately.

Whilst I don't follow the legal aspects of whether what he did was within the rules or not, I find the reason for these practice starts annoying. Does everything really have to be fine tuned like this? Surely these drivers are good enough to make decent start without fine tuning electronics?

I'm inclined to agree with you; electronic tuning is not a good reason to allow practise starts. Mostly this dates back to a time when cars were harder to start, and practising really could be the difference between a safe getaway and stalling at the crucial moment. Yes, that's a test of driver skill, but is it really necessary to have drivers behind pointlessly have to dodge impromptu chicanes? Attitudes changed over the decades.

The leak to the Finnish press couldn't have anything to do with Mika Salo being the driver steward could it?   ;)

Such has been alleged. However, I do not yet have enough evidence to substantiate this. At this stage, I am more concerned about the fact there was a leak, and that nobody seems to have bothered reporting it to the FIA's judicial authorities despite a mechanism for this existing. Even if this has never happened before and no single individual can be connected with the leak, it still shouldn't have happened and still needs plugging.

Additional Zeroes:  The Russians packed into the stands and mostly mask-less.  Hope that Russian vaccine works!

I knew there was a major zero I'd forgotten when considering whether to put Carlos Sainz in my list (I like to stick to three, and as it stands, my list has a certain "One of these things is not like the others" vibe)! Yes, like Mugello, the crowds were not social distancing. In this case, the organisers putting people too close together did not help, but people, it seems, will be careless anyway. (I did not seriously expect masks as grandstands are outdoors, and many places allow people outdoors to be masked unless social distancing is known to be compromised on paper. I'm sure Sochi's organisers complied with the theory in their planning documents...)
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Andy B on September 29, 2020, 09:22:23 PM
Fine tuning starts Ali is surely part of all drivers skill set and if the only time they get to do it is at the start then more errors will ensue and you might say that'll spice things up but as we have seen in the past when a driver drops back into the pack at the start it all gets a little too exciting.
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: jimclark on September 30, 2020, 01:45:29 AM
I find the reason for these practice starts annoying. Does everything really have to be fine tuned like this? Surely these drivers are good enough to make decent start without fine tuning electronics?
Short answer.....absolutely.
Agreed. The drivers are good enough so I'm rather annoyed by the need for practice and setting everything else up (suspension geometry, spring rates, shock valving, aero, engine mapping, etc. etc. etc.), right? I mean, in actuality, they get many laps of driving but only (usually that is) one shot at a start, so if anything, that should be the focus, correct? :P

:D
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Jericoke on September 30, 2020, 01:51:46 AM
I find the reason for these practice starts annoying. Does everything really have to be fine tuned like this? Surely these drivers are good enough to make decent start without fine tuning electronics?
Short answer.....absolutely.
Agreed. The drivers are good enough so I'm rather annoyed by the need for practice and setting everything else up (suspension geometry, spring rates, shock valving, aero, engine mapping, etc. etc. etc.), right? I mean, in actuality, they get many laps of driving but only (usually that is) one shot at a start, so if anything, that should be the focus, correct? :P

:D

It's a catch-22 of F1.  If everyone starts smoothly, it's a dull affair, if one driver doesn't start smoothly, it causes a catastrophic crash.  There doesn't seem to be a middle ground any more.
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on September 30, 2020, 02:48:32 AM
I don't know, Max has had several slow starts and hasn't been hit yet has he? They are far more likely to crash at the first turn when they all bunch up under braking.
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: rmassart on September 30, 2020, 08:48:20 AM
I find the reason for these practice starts annoying. Does everything really have to be fine tuned like this? Surely these drivers are good enough to make decent start without fine tuning electronics?
Short answer.....absolutely.
Agreed. The drivers are good enough so I'm rather annoyed by the need for practice and setting everything else up (suspension geometry, spring rates, shock valving, aero, engine mapping, etc. etc. etc.), right? I mean, in actuality, they get many laps of driving but only (usually that is) one shot at a start, so if anything, that should be the focus, correct? :P

:D

I get your point, but I draw the line at mechanical adjustments made physically in the pits vs electronics and software adjustments.  I know the line doesn't really exist anymore with fly-by-wire tech, but still up until the 21st Century(?) drivers managed to make perfectly good starts without electronics.  Do the cars really need to have so much tech in them, that electronics need to be adjusted for the start? At some point I might as well just watch eSports racing. Since we're not allowed to be in the stands anymore and we're anyway watching it on TV most of the time, what's the difference?  This is the argument of my kids, who see no difference between watching the Premier League on TV and watching someone play FIFA 21 on YouTube (I exaggerate, but it is definitely going in this direction).

And if the argument is to stop drivers messing up their start and have someone crash into the back, we might as have rolling starts, and ban overtaking... and corners. Drivers make mistakes, it's why we have crashes. Most crashes at the start are not because of someone standing still on the grid, I don't remember the last time this happened (I know someone with a better memory than me will say it was last weekend or something :) )
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: monty on September 30, 2020, 09:57:33 AM
So good to see Riciardo doing well - I hope his jump to McLaren isn't premature??
I cannot agree with giving Bottas hero status - he performed poorly in Quali and then lucked-in to a win.
I can't stand Verstapen be he actually drove well in a car that clearly wasn't as quick as others around him.
Now the controversy - Hamilton was clearly a hero. What a drive! Considering he started on the 'wrong tyres' and had to deal with unjust penalties, he did an amazing job.
He transgressed the sporting code (directed by his team) therefore he should have had a penalty applied; one penalty! It wasn't dangerous so there should never have been any consideration of putting points on his super licence. Oh, and then the little matter of leaking the situation to the press!! The stewards seem to go out of their way to appear to have bias against Hamilton and then wonder 'why all the bad press'!!!
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Andy B on September 30, 2020, 09:36:07 PM
Well put Monty I have to add that when LH retires there is nobody to replace him but then I said that about MS too!
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: cosworth151 on October 01, 2020, 01:25:27 PM
F1 prides itself on being the pinnacle of high tech (even though any kind of innovation is swiftly quashed.) At least it's not the full-on launch control of the early 2000's F1 without high tech is called IndyCar.  ;)

These tuning adjustment days aren't anything new. The Friday before the Indy 500 was always Carburetion Day. Even though it's been over half a century since any Indy car had a carburetor, Carb Day is still part of the 500 schedule every year. It's sponsored and features a large concert.
Title: Re: Russia 2020 - Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Alianora La Canta on October 03, 2020, 10:29:20 AM
Fine tuning starts Ali is surely part of all drivers skill set and if the only time they get to do it is at the start then more errors will ensue and you might say that'll spice things up but as we have seen in the past when a driver drops back into the pack at the start it all gets a little too exciting.

This is an example of "attitudes changed over the decades". As the question of start preparedness became less of a safety issue and more of an entertainment one, people switched from thinking of officially-sanctioned start preparation as essential, to tolerating it, to being against it.
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