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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Dare on August 05, 2007, 10:06:36 PM

Title: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Dare on August 05, 2007, 10:06:36 PM
your top 3 drivers for Hun. GP

1.   Heidfeld   nice podium finish

2.   Hamilton  withstood pressure from Kimi for nice win

3.   Kimi         fell just short of win

Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Chameleon on August 05, 2007, 10:20:23 PM
1...Alonso (provided us with the only overtaking in the race)

2...Heidfeld (stayed close enough to the two leaders to be able to take advantage if either or both of them developed a problem.  The BMW wasn't a match for either the McLaren or Ferrari today but Heidfeld got as much out of it as it had to give)

3...Raikkonen (got more out of the Ferrari than it had to give - as he always does)
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: cosworth151 on August 05, 2007, 10:27:10 PM
1. Heidfeld - good podium finish, ran with the big dogs.

2. Hamilton - Ran a great race in spite of all the nonsense going on around him all week-end

3. Kubica - Got a first tier drive from a second tier car.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: johnbull on August 05, 2007, 10:58:06 PM
1. Hamilton. After such a difficult and distracting start to the weekend, to run a race like that with constant pressure from Kimi is something special.

2.  Kimi he is just magic. Always gives 100%. Shame he's in the wrong team. :yahoo:
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: FW14B on August 05, 2007, 11:10:54 PM
Hamilton- Nerves of steel

Kimi- pushed hard, but suffered from the usual dirty air problems and the issues of the track

Ralf  :o for fighting hard with Alonso behind him
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: johnbull on August 05, 2007, 11:14:50 PM
Yes, I think Ralfie deserves a Mars bar too.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: FW14B on August 05, 2007, 11:16:07 PM
 :DD  I am in the camp that says Ralf deserves to be out of F1.  About 1 race in 20 he does anything worthwhile lately.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: raindancer on August 06, 2007, 12:54:16 PM
Alonso : for a fantastic overtaking move.
Kimi: for driving his guts out.
Rosberg: showing his class.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Chameleon on August 06, 2007, 03:00:43 PM
I deliberately left out Hamilton from my list because his main competition had been taken out of contention by the cretinous stewards' ruling on what was an internal team matter.  I suspect that Rainy is in agreement with me.

Hamilton's race was not particularly good when we remember that the McLaren had a considerable performance advantage over the Ferrari at this circuit.  Raikkonen stayed with him all the way and I don't see Hamilton's retaining his lead as anything special on a track where overtaking is supposed to be impossible.  These days anyone can (and ought to) win from the front.  We might have seen a very different race had Alonso been allowed to contest the lead with his team mate (and it really didn't matter which of them gained pole).
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: raindancer on August 07, 2007, 01:55:50 PM
I agree with Chammy. There was nothing great about Hamilton's drive after Alonso has been taken out. I think my vote goes to Rosberg actually for driver of the race.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: FW14B on August 07, 2007, 04:17:18 PM
I think the thing with Lewis in the race was that he is still pretty much a rookie and was under intense pressure from a car which was probably quicker in race conditions, and he did not make any mistakes other than a lock up.  Yes, it is easy to win from the front, but when still fairly new to F1 it is possible to make mistakes.  Heck, Massa isn't even new and he can get forced into mistakes when pushed the way Kimi was pushing. 

Unfortunately, although I am a massive Nico fan (as I am a Williams fan) I was a bit disappointed with his race.  Strategy was probably not down to him but going from 4th to 7th was a bit frustrating (and he was not the only driver to 3 stop as both BMW's did it and finished ahead of Nico.)  Still, I am just glad to see someone give Williams and Nico credits, so nice one raindancer!
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: johnbull on August 07, 2007, 05:08:19 PM
When a new guy in his first season leads a GP from start to finish with arguably the quickest driver of the moment breathing down his neck, and we don't give him credit, it just proves how much we have grown to expect from this kid.

If say Fizi, or Coulthard, or Webber, or even Ralf had driven exactly the same race we would have all been lauding them like never before.

It says alot for LH.

In my book, anyone that can hold Kimi behind them for 70 laps is a hero, whatever the circuit.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: FW14B on August 07, 2007, 06:01:40 PM
Well said JB.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Chameleon on August 07, 2007, 06:14:10 PM
That says far more about your assessment of Raikkonen than it does on your estimation of Hamilton, John.  ;)
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Alianora La Canta on August 07, 2007, 08:40:48 PM
Sutil - for keeping a Honda behind him on merit in an 18-month-old car that's not only been developed with a budget a smidgenth of Honda's, but is about to be replaced by a faster machine...

Heidfeld - for a respectable podium, keeping out of trouble and not putting a wheel wrong all weekend (unlike those in front).

Hamilton - for having a steering problem and negating it to the extent that the rest of us only found out about it at the press conference. Even if the win itself was tainted by lack of competition, the mechanical sympathy deserves a thumbs-up.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: johnbull on August 07, 2007, 11:06:24 PM
That says far more about your assessment of Raikkonen than it does on your estimation of Hamilton, John.  ;)
Agreed. In fact I think we are all in agreement that Kimi is the best of the current lot, which makes Hami's performance even more respectable.

I think this also answer's Ali's last comment, but Ali how can you say Kimi all over Hami all race long was a lack of competition?

Are we so used to Hami's faultless performances that we shrug them off already? Remember this poor kid is only in his 10th F1 race - or is it 11th.

There are guys that have done a hundred and ten and still haven't achieved a quarter of what he has.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Ian on August 08, 2007, 12:01:24 AM
But not in the same car JB, vastly inferior
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Chameleon on August 08, 2007, 03:08:34 AM
It's a matter of character too, John.  Maybe I should detach myself from any opinion on the driver's character, but I can't.  I could never forgive the Shoe's obvious character flaws, even though it was pretty obvious that the guy could drive a bit too.

Alonso's little tantrums I find easier to forgive - the occasional flare-up is only to be expected when the guy has hot Spanish blood coursing through his veins.  But Kimi is something different from all of them.  His whole attitude and approach is different - he wants to win with a passion that dwarfs the others' yet he'll do it through his God-given talent and nothing else.  He turns up, has a snooze in the pits, and then climbs into the car and drives the wheels off it.

It's weird - he is pure racer when you put him in a car and yet out of it, it's as though he really couldn't care less.  Maybe he is just more balanced than any of them and knows that, when it comes down to it, it's just a race, for pete's sake.  What a guy, what a racer, what an enigma.

And so we come to Hamilton.  Sure, the guy can drive a bit and I was being won over by his performances.  But this weekend has made me step back again and say I'll wait and see.  I don't care how ambitious or talented you are, there is no excuse for talking to another human being as he spoke to Ron Dennis.  With those few words he revealed a spoiled brat who needs his backside tanning.

I'll give him time to grow up but, for the moment, he is just a bunch of talent with an immature character.  You may be able to judge his driving separate from who he is but I can't.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: johnbull on August 08, 2007, 08:44:17 AM
This is a very interesting one. I'd love to answer it right now but I have work to do right now.

I'll try and get back to it this afternoon, but I see your point Chammy. There seem to be 2 very different sides to every BIG driver.

A perfect excuse for a very interesting discussion.

For later.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Chameleon on August 08, 2007, 11:42:53 AM
I look forward to it, John.  Indeed, I savour it!
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: raindancer on August 08, 2007, 12:38:40 PM
I would have really liked to see Hamilton in another car other than this years Mclaren. INHO the jury is still out as far as Hamilton's greatness or ability.
Those seemingly faultless performances have to be viewed in context and unlike Senna, Prost or even MS, he never drove for a under performing car and impress. Alonso was spotted when he first drove a Minardi and used to qualify 21st lots of times. Hamilton has never seen adversity and this situation may work to his detriment.

Hamilton is a talent no doubt, but I don't think he is exceptional and all these controversies will have an effect. There is talk that Ferrari are willing to offer $ 17 M to him next year. $ 165 K to $ 17 M will one hell of a raise, if it happens though.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: johnbull on August 08, 2007, 05:13:55 PM
If we take the top 4 for starters, much as I am amazed by Hamilton and his ultra rapid progress, I am still the first to admit that both Kimi and Nando are more complete drivers. I still put Kimi and Nando a notch above the rest.

Chammy's description of Kimi is spot on. The guy never ceases to amaze. He looks so "couldn't care less" about everything, yet when he gets behind the wheel he just puts his head down - AND GOES. He is a pleasure to watch, and let's face it, it's not as though he's old either. He shows no emotion. He doesn't give the impression he is even enjoying what he's doing, even when he wins. Whoever called him ICEMAN hit the nail right on the head. I still reckon he could be World Champ this year, Max or no Max.

Nando. Well, hot blooded Latin, and has been showing it this season. But not before! Was it 2 or 3 years ago when he had the great Michael all over him at Imola with a superior car? Nando just kept his cool and if anyone was making mistakes it was Michael. That was Nando at his very best. There have been a few more recent occasions with Michael where Nando has stood his ground and not taken any nonsense.

But this season he seems more tempremental. More Latin. Is it the Lewis effect? He has made more mistakes. He doesn't smile so much - though having said that, when did anyone last see Kimi smile ::). He talks a bit too much and complains too much, again the Latin coming out of him, but put him in the car and he is ballistic too. Yes, on equal terms I reckon he is quicker than Lewis, but so he should be.

Lewis. We've all said so much about him. And rightly so. He is outstanding. No, he is not the World's best. Not yet. give him a chance. Remember he has only been GP racing less than 6 months, and how many guys have had 4 poles, 3 wins and 9 podiums in their first 6 months, whatever they were driving. There have been other more experienced drivers that have found themselves in World Championship winning cars, and none of them have done what Lewis has done. Look at your history books. Did Senna when he moved from a mediocre Lotus to the best car of the era, the Mc Laren? Did Prost?

Incidentally this is not meant to be in anyway derogatory towards the great Ayrton Senna. I still bow every time I mention his name.

And now to Massa. What can I say that I haven't already said? He's quick. He's charming. But he will only stay at Ferrari next season because Nicolas Todt is his manager. I'm afraid I just don't put him in the same league as Kimi and Nando who can both be guaranteed to be super fast always, everywhere. True World Championship material both.

Michael is teaching Massa alot, and Massa is learning well, but if I had to give points out of 10 for the top 4 this is how they would be:

Kimi 10.    Nando 10.   Lewis 8.   Massa 7.

Now this should create some interesting discussion! :yahoo:
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Chameleon on August 08, 2007, 07:53:05 PM
We are not far apart on this one at all, John.  I would agree with your ratings on those four entirely.

My point was rather that I did not even consider putting Hamilton in as a driver of the day in Hungary because of what he is alleged to have said to Ron Dennis over the radio.  Interestingly, Monty has started another thread in which he says that the story is not true - and I must admit that, when I first heard it, I thought it was a concoction of the press.  But then so many sources seemed to confirm it that I was forced to accept it and Hamilton took a nosedive in my estimation.  I hope that Monty is right.

The case of Hamilton is further complicated by the common complaint that "any of the new drivers would do as well if you put him in that car."  It's an easy thing to say but impossible to prove since it isn't going to happen.  But it is true that we seem to have a lot of new drivers with outstanding talent this year and some might do as well as Hamilton if given the same opportunity.  Kubica and Kovalainen had difficult starts to the season but are now beginning to show real promise, Sebastian Vettel is much hyped and Adrian Sutil does wonders in the Spyker (okay, Alianora?).

So Hamilton remains difficult to classify.  Would he look as good in a Spyker or an STR?  Durned if I know.  We measure him against Alonso and think he must be good to give the champ such a hard time - well, yeah, he's good but let me see a bit more yet, is my response.

Talking of Alonso, those battles with Schumacher are perhaps the most amazing thing about him. He occasionally whinges and looks miserable outside of the car but put him in a battle with the Shoe and suddenly he is nerves of steel and flawless precision.  That is why we were so surprised by his numerous errors in Canada this year - we really didn't think the guy could put a foot wrong while driving.

But it was the circumstances - he was behind, having to take risks to catch up, and desperate to prove himself better than his young upstart team mate.  He pushed too hard and we saw the result.  So yes, he's human, but then so is Kimi.  I don't need to remind you of the occasional wild mistakes the Ice Man has made.

Hamilton is young, inexperienced and very talented.  In time he might become the great driver of his era.  But it's too early to throw that mantle on him yet; in a year or two we can begin to think about it.

A final word: Ayrton was incredible from the moment he sat in a Formula 1 car.  At his first test he was two seconds faster than anyone else had been in the same car.  In his first year he took a hopelessly uncompetitive Toleman and scored points with it.  Ayrton wasn't God but he was definitely his best mate...
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: johnbull on August 08, 2007, 08:39:55 PM
Ayrton wasn't God but he was definitely his best mate...

Quote of the day in my book. ;) :good:
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Chameleon on August 08, 2007, 08:49:49 PM
Those whom the gods love die young.  God loved Ayrton with a passion.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: johnbull on August 08, 2007, 09:10:42 PM
I was recently given a beautiful set of prints of Ayrton. Absolutely magic. I'm having a few of them framed to hang up at home.

There are a couple of beautiful portraits.

Got them here right in front of me.

1. Monza 86. Riding a kerb with the Lotus Renault turbo (JPS).

2. Imola 91 with Mc Laren Honda.

3. Monza 93 with Mc Laren Cosworth - tripping up on Damon's Williams at the chicane. Plenty of action in this one. Prost (Williams) is leading from Berger (Ferrari). Then there's Hill and Ayrton making contact with Shumi (Benetton) just behind followed by Alboreto I think (Ferrari), Herbert (Lotus), a Ligier with a driver wearing a white helmet, and a Shadow - or is it Wendlinger in the Sauber.

4. Imola 91 again. This time in the rain. Both this pic and pic 2 have plenty of spectators so I don't know which one would have been practice and which the race.

The portraits are from Monza 89 and a fabulous one of that dreaded Imola 94.

It's a beautifully presented set which i really treasure.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Chameleon on August 08, 2007, 09:33:43 PM
There follows something I wrote some time ago in honour of Lord Nelson (it was Trafalgar Day) but it could apply equally to Ayrton Senna it now strikes me:

His final act sets the seal on his greatness. To die at the moment of his greatest victory is the finest thing any hero can do. Not for Nelson the slow degeneration into a bristling curmudgeon, ranting against political developments beyond his time, as was the lot of Wellington. Not for him the eccentric lifestyle in a country cottage, writing self-congratulatory memoirs, as did Montgomery. Not even a disappearance into obscurity and an unnoticed death in some banal accident, as befell T.E. Lawrence, the famous Lawrence of Arabia.

No, Nelson did it properly, leaving us no memory of declining years, no later indiscretions to dull his bright legend. We have no option but to remember him at the height of his fame and greatness. Small wonder that we set him upon a pedestal so high in the middle of a square named for his finest hour. The man just couldn't lose.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: raindancer on August 09, 2007, 09:04:06 AM
Great Chammy ! Really wonderful and to all the fallen greats who died in their hour of glory RIP.
Regarding Hamilton, that is the point I was trying to make. Ayrton sat in an inferior car and drove it  like no one else. Alonso's talent came to the surface when he used to qualify 20th or 21st in a MInardi. Hamilton has started with the best car of the grid, with the team principal backing him, had the benefit of a double world champion as a team mate, copied setups and drove. When I say put him in an STR and than compare the telemetry. A good or great driver will be found out.
The Mclaren was always not this good. But Mika being a good driver he is was made to look ordinary or even pedestrain by the car. The same car which Mika won the WDC, DC couldn't. It goes on and on.

Hamilton is good no doubt, but Kimi electrified people in a sauber. Lets get a perspective here, so if people say he is the best car, best team, best teammate, team principal as mentor, top 3 budgets in F1, Top 3 engines in F1,  it would be an extreme disappointment if he did anything less.
Lets wait this thing out.
Regards the best four drivers.
Sheer Speed/ Talent: Kimi
Complete driver: Alonso.
The rest are not close enough.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: cosworth151 on August 09, 2007, 03:57:59 PM
Fine work, Cammy. I couldn't help but think of Jim Clark as I read it, also. He and Senna were both the best of their day, taken away at their zenith.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: romephius on August 09, 2007, 04:07:13 PM
I am not able to match you guys on this thread for quality or quantity...but I will say this.....I haven't been a fan of F1 for long (8 years), the first team and driver I ever supported was McLaren and Mikka Hakkinen....simply a pleasure to watch drive (in my opinion)....then came Kimi Raikkonen...he replaced Mikka and I flowed with the new driver...my two cents worth is as follows.....even with the worst car on the grid Kimi could drive the wheels off the car and finish far better than the car is capable...he has gone through the tough times and proved himself time and again....Hamilton still has to prove himself and until he does, he is a lucky little boy in a mans game.

As always I could be wrong....but this is just my opinion

Rom
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: johnbull on August 09, 2007, 05:00:29 PM
OK so Hamilton never started in a Minardi or a Spyker. Hamilton started with Ron Dennis, Mercedes, Mc Laren and the best all round team bar none.  Why?

Would Ron Dennis really have wasted a seat at Mc Laren if he didn't think LH was worth every bit of it. I suspect LH has come out beyond everybody's expectations, not just those of Ron D.

I think we have to look at the other end of the grid, the quick end, to come to some conclusions. Lewis is mixing it with the 2 drivers we are all in agreement are a cut above the rest, Kimi and Nando. Would Sutil, Kovalainen, Kubica, Vettel, have done that. I suspect not, and I'll give Kubica and Kovalainen as my examples.

Fizi was always way slower than Alonso at Renault, sometimes pathetically so. He started the season faster than HK but now HK is slightly quicker on average. Now compare the performances and results of LH and FA.

Kubica. He is about on a par with Nick H as far as performances so far this season are concerned. Would you consider Nick H to be as quick as Kimi or Nando. I wouldn't.

And finally, the world's top motorsport journalists are hailing LH as the next big thing. Is it possible they're all wrong?  Yesterday I think it was, I gave my top 4 with points to each. I put Kimi and Nando on 10 each and LH on 8. I stand by that.

Quote Cossie, on a different tack.
Fine work, Cammy. I couldn't help but think of Jim Clark as I read it, also. He and Senna were both the best of their day, taken away at their zenith.

I fully endorse that. Clark and Senna are my 2 all time favorites, though Ronnie Peterson too has a special spot in my heart. Unfortunately he didn't live long enough to prove me right.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: cosworth151 on August 09, 2007, 05:10:15 PM
Clark and Senna are my 2 all time favorites, though Ronnie Peterson too has a special spot in my heart. Unfortunately he didn't live long enough to prove me right.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: cosworth151 on August 09, 2007, 05:13:38 PM
Oops, wrong button. :crazy:

What I was going to say was that I quite agree with that. I've read that Colin Chapman and Mario Andretti thought the same of him.

One for the Strange but True file: Two Amereicans have won the F1 driving championship. In both cases, their teammate was killed at Monza, von Tripps and Peterson.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Chameleon on August 09, 2007, 05:37:50 PM
Hmmmm, perhaps it's just as well that it looks as though Scott Speed is out of F1 for good...

I am glad Rom mentioned Mika Hakkinen.  He reminded me that there were occasions when Mika looked exactly like Senna in the car - not every time out, mind you, but often enough for me to have enormous respect for him.  That supreme confidence, the flowing, precise style that made it look easy, the feeling that this was a maestro at the peak of his powers, Mika had that on some days.

I can think of no other driver who has looked like that since.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: johnbull on August 09, 2007, 06:13:27 PM
Hmmmm, perhaps it's just as well that it looks as though Scott Speed is out of F1 for good...

I am glad Rom mentioned Mika Hakkinen.  He reminded me that there were occasions when Mika looked exactly like Senna in the car - not every time out, mind you, but often enough for me to have enormous respect for him.  That supreme confidence, the flowing, precise style that made it look easy, the feeling that this was a maestro at the peak of his powers, Mika had that on some days.

I can think of no other driver who has looked like that since.

Kimi reminds me most of Mika. just Ice Cold Always, but flyers both.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Chameleon on August 09, 2007, 07:25:03 PM
Agreed, John, but there was something extra about Hakkinen sometimes.  It's hard to define it but just occasionally I'd be watching Hakkinen in a GP without a thought of Senna in my mind and then suddenly I'd see it.  It was almost as if the ghost of Senna had taken the wheel and Hakkinen was flying.

Senna himself talked about that state of being when a driver is doing his utmost and then suddenly breaks through to another level where he sets times thought impossible before.  Maybe that is what I was seeing, those moments when Mika entered that other world and became more than the sum of his abilities and the car's.  Fangio, too, talked of a moment like that in the last few laps of his famous Nurburgring win against the Ferraris.

Perhaps my memories of Senna are fading and I am missing similar moments for today's drivers as a result.  All I know is that I saw them in Mika and haven't seen them since, even in Kimi.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: johnbull on August 09, 2007, 07:32:18 PM
I agree that despite Kimi's tremendous talent, I don't think we are in an era where one particular driver stands out - like Clark and Senna did, and even Shumi, though in his case there were minus points that effect our judgement even today.

I have a feeling LH is going that way but it's still early days, so probably Mika Hakkinen was probably the latest of the OUTSTANDING drivers. There were a number of occasions when I would sit there with my mouth wide open in disbelief. remember Spa?

I bet Michael does. ;)
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Chameleon on August 09, 2007, 07:50:46 PM
Spa is certainly the race that everyone remembers (and probably the one the Shoe was thinking of when he said that Mika was the greatest of all his competitors).  But I remember seeing this happen to Mika at Monza, the race where he crashed out through a silly mistake and then sat down and cried.  Incredible, isn't it, that that should be a race where I remember this effect happening?  Yet it did, I remember it distinctly, and it may even have been the cause of Mika's inexplicable error.  To have been flying like that, so much a part of the car and in an unassailable lead, setting lap times that were unnecessarily fast, what a feeling that must have been.  And how easy, too, to let it slip for an instant of self-congratulation.  Bang.

To this day, I believe that's what happened and the real reason for Mika's tears.  He knew he'd blown, not the championship, but his moment with the gods...
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: raindancer on August 09, 2007, 07:56:34 PM
OK so Hamilton never started in a Minardi or a Spyker. Hamilton started with Ron Dennis, Mercedes, Mc Laren and the best all round team bar none.  Why?

Would Ron Dennis really have wasted a seat at Mc Laren if he didn't think LH was worth every bit of it. I suspect LH has come out beyond everybody's expectations, not just those of Ron D.

I think we have to look at the other end of the grid, the quick end, to come to some conclusions. Lewis is mixing it with the 2 drivers we are all in agreement are a cut above the rest, Kimi and Nando. Would Sutil, Kovalainen, Kubica, Vettel, have done that. I suspect not, and I'll give Kubica and Kovalainen as my examples.

Fizi was always way slower than Alonso at Renault, sometimes pathetically so. He started the season faster than HK but now HK is slightly quicker on average. Now compare the performances and results of LH and FA.

Kubica. He is about on a par with Nick H as far as performances so far this season are concerned. Would you consider Nick H to be as quick as Kimi or Nando. I wouldn't.

And finally, the world's top motorsport journalists are hailing LH as the next big thing. Is it possible they're all wrong?  Yesterday I think it was, I gave my top 4 with points to each. I put Kimi and Nando on 10 each and LH on 8. I stand by that.

Quote Cossie, on a different tack.
Fine work, Cammy. I couldn't help but think of Jim Clark as I read it, also. He and Senna were both the best of their day, taken away at their zenith.

I fully endorse that. Clark and Senna are my 2 all time favorites, though Ronnie Peterson too has a special spot in my heart. Unfortunately he didn't live long enough to prove me right.
Nick was so much slower than Alesi at Prost.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Dare on August 10, 2007, 02:53:30 AM
I'll admit Clark and Senna were special,but I
think you have to put J Stewart in that special
group too,every time he climbed in a race car
I expected him to win.

Also think Cevert belongs with Peterson as
talents that were never allowed to reach
their potential
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Chameleon on August 10, 2007, 03:54:58 AM
Peterson and Cevert fall into a period when I had no way to actually watch the GPs - I had to rely on reports and there weren't many of those available either.  So I'm really in no position to judge the two of them.  I did see Peterson in his last season but he was under strict orders to allow Mario to win that year, so it wasn't really a true indication of what he was capable of.

I am one of those rare creatures, a Piquet (Sr) fan.  In his first full season in F1, he actually did what we might come to call a "Hamilton".  He was supposed to be number 2 to Niki Lauda in the Brabham team but outqualified and outraced him so often that Lauda retired abruptly in a huff in Canada, the second last race of the year.  I wonder if Hamilton will force the same on Fernando...

Piquet is under-appreciated mainly because his great years were in the ground effect era.  He was unbelievable to watch in the Brabham BT49 - the car twitching as it hurtled through the corners.  They weren't supposed to do that, those ground effect cars - they either stuck to the road like glue or, if you reached the razor-sharp edge of adhesion, they'd immediately head for the boonies.  Piquet was the only driver of the time (and that includes Gilles) who could hold the car exactly on that edge, catching it with lightning reflexes every time it let go.  Not surprisingly, he was also the only driver to mourn the passing of ground effect.

He once described Ayrton Senna as "that Sao Paulo taxi driver" - there's real bitterness for you.  There was some truth in the charge, however, as Ayrton was always known for his somewhat robust passing manouvers.  And there was one occasion, in Portugal, when Piquet finally got the upper hand on his countryman - sliding his Williams sideways through a corner (again, that was not supposed to be possible) to keep the lead he'd just taken from Senna's Lotus.

If Nelsinho is half the driver his father was, he should be quite something...
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: johnbull on August 10, 2007, 08:31:12 AM
Ah, the memories.

Nelson Piquet was always a favorite. He was such a character too, always taking the p*ss out of everyone, not least of all his team mates.

Yes Chammy, I remember that first season when Lauda was supposed to be GOD, and this little squeak would humiliate him time and again.

But Ronnie Peterson has always had a very special place in my heart. Always has had. I was at Monaco in - was it 1970 - when Ronnie had his first F1 race in Colin Crabbe's Antique Automobiles March 701. Ah, so it must have been 70. The car was painted in Crabbe's colours of yellow and brown. Being the Dunlop distributor in Malta, and with Dunlop heavily involved in F1 in those days, I always had passes for every GP, so whenever I went to a GP I could literally roam wherever I wished. I spent alot of time in the pits. Jackie Stewart was my favorite then.

Don't laugh, but one of the things that has stuck in my mind since those lovely bygone days was Chris Amon's girlfriend. Her petit little frock was about 10 sizes too small, presumably by design rather than by accident. Even then she could give some of our WIZ's pit babes a run for their money. ::)

Incidentally the 1970 Monaco was that fabulous one when Jochen Rindt pipped Jack Brabham at the last hairpin when lapping Piers Courage. Again, I watched it all. I had strolled down the pit lane to the hairpin to watch the last few laps from there, and saw it all unfold right before my very eyes.

I next saw Ronnie Peterson the day after I got married. Carolyn and I were married in Wilmslow, Cheshire on Saturday the 31st March 1973. Just a few miles down the road at Oulton Park that weekend, the Gold Cup race for Formula 2 was taking place, so being a nice and dutyful husband I took my new wife out for a "day at the races" ;). If my memory serves me well, Ronnie had won, which made it all even better.

And again in 1978 it must have been, I watched Ronnie and Mario Andretti anililate the opposition at the British GP at Brands with the black and gold Lotus 78s, till they both retired.

Happy memories.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Chameleon on August 10, 2007, 11:20:50 AM
One of my favourite video clips on YouTube (no doubt now removed by the officious little Bernard Ecclestone) was the one in which Prost is being interviewed and Nelson appears over his shoulder, squashing his nose sideways in perfect imitation of Alain's rather bent snout.  In fact, I often wonder who came to an end of his patience with the arrogant Tadpole and re-arranged his face with a well-aimed blow.

From your comments regarding Chris Amon's girlfriend, John, it is quite clear that you were a champion talent spotter even then.  Nothing changes, it seems...  ;)
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: johnbull on August 10, 2007, 02:29:35 PM
My friends say I always have had an eye for talent. 8) ;) 8)
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: Chameleon on August 10, 2007, 03:30:30 PM
We realised that some time ago, John.   :DD
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: raindancer on August 11, 2007, 10:28:12 PM
There is a Lid who leading the Formula BMW series called Akhil Kushlani. He is number one in points after only six races.. I believe these cars generate upto 620 BHP
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: monty on August 17, 2007, 02:35:24 PM
From the various posts it seems that Raindancer doesn't rate Hamilton and he is of course perfectly entitled to his opinions. I do not favour any particular driver. To me they are all brilliant and I only wish I had their talent and their luck to get into these fantastic F1 cars. I must however, disagree with Raindancer that Hamilton has never excelled in a lesser car. He has driven karts that were not the best chassis/engine combination and won everything. He has driven GP2 cars where his team mates were several seconds slower. However, the most amazing issue is that he came straight from cars with standard gearboxes, no traction control, different tyres, less aero packages and beat everyone including his experienced F1 team mate. I don't know if Raindancer has done any racing. I've done a little and believe me moving from one class to another is really difficult.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: johnbull on August 18, 2007, 10:34:29 AM
That's where Hamilton impresses me too. In fact to be even more specific, it was his very first GP. Out there with the lions in his very first GP, and not only did he hold his own, but he finished on the podium.

Not many people can do that, though just for the record Giancarlo Baghetti actually won his first GP. I don't think anybody has beaten that one yet.
Title: Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
Post by: raindancer on August 20, 2007, 07:32:40 PM
Hi Monty,
Just trying to be objective about all the Hamilton mania in this forum too. There have been a number of guys who have blazed their way in the lesser formula, but have not really done well in Formula 1. Case in point, Frentzen. He beat Schumacher regularly but couldn't do much in Formula 1 despite of driving for Williams at the height of their prowess.
I would presume Hamilton has been testing for Mclaren a lot before his official unveiling.
I am sure Hamilton is good , very good no doubt, but in my case the Jury is still out because, he hasn't really been through a tough situation yet.
Lets wait and see.
I have always considered Britain to be the home of motor racing.

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