Is Vettel a true Great?

[Jericoke]

Ah, there you go with statistics again...look at it another way.  Vettel won his first WDC in his 3rd year in F1.  Well gee-wizz, so did Schumacher.  Sure, Vettel has 4 on the trot, but Schumacher actually had the guts to leave a successful team and move to a struggling team to help build the team into a winner.  Let's see Vettel jump into a Mclaren or better yet, a Williams and see if he can keep it up. 

Let's be fair about what Schumacher did... he went to one of the richest sporting outfits in the world to become the highest paid athlete in the world, becoming the lynchpin of a dream team which set out to restore Ferrari to the pinnacle of F1. 

Job well done to be sure, but there were no guarantees of a WDC.  If Renault hadn't pulled out... well, no point in playing what if.

Vettel took a risk going to RBR and sticking with RBR.  After all, STR was a race winning car when he made the move, and RBR was not.

I don't see McLaren as a good fit for Vettel.  I know that RBR isn't the 'anti-McLaren' they used to be, but still, Vettel isn't going to settle down and toe the line for any team. 

However, I would think that Mercedes might want another try at hiring a multi-champion German racer...

[John S]

Vettel took a risk going to RBR and sticking with RBR.  After all, STR was a race winning car when he made the move, and RBR was not.

The race winning STR car that you refer to Jeri was really a customer car, a development of the Red Bull RB3 & RB4 chassis courtesy Red Bull Technologies.  In 07 and 08 both STR and Super Aguri were using remodelled chassis from their larger partner teams. For 09 this situation had to change and Seb would not have had the continuing benefit of Newey's genius if he stayed at the Italian team. A no brainer for him really to join the senior team.

[Scott]

Let's be fair about what Schumacher did... he went to one of the richest sporting outfits in the world to become the highest paid athlete in the world, becoming the lynchpin of a dream team which set out to restore Ferrari to the pinnacle of F1. 

EX-Sqeeze ME?  I can't imagine Ferrari's budget being all that much bigger than RBR and STR combined, and even if it is/was, financially the RBR stable was and is hardly struggling.  What team in F1 has paid for 4 cars on the grid and in fact had to do it while funding two separate factories??  If Vettel had a decent manager he would be getting Alonso bucks at RBR by now.

Vettel took a risk going to RBR and sticking with RBR.  After all, STR was a race winning car when he made the move, and RBR was not.

I can't imagine any driver thinking they are taking a 'risk' joining an outfit that is producing a Newey designed car.  Come on Jeri, you aren't seriously saying it was a risk for Vettel to leave STR and move to RBR.   

I don't see McLaren as a good fit for Vettel.  I know that RBR isn't the 'anti-McLaren' they used to be, but still, Vettel isn't going to settle down and toe the line for any team. 

Not many people thought Ferrari would be a good fit for an arrogant German either.  But my point was really that Schumacher left a team that he was comfortable with and joined one that was very foreign to him.

[vintly]

You have to be pretty exceptional to be the no. 1 driver in the top car, regardless. You don't get to drive the best unless you ARE the best, or very nearly.

Vettel was given the drive before the RBR was considered a top car.  Top drivers weren't even looking seriously at RBR.

I never thought Schumacher was a true great, and still don't, but that's because I can't stand him.

Exactly how some of us think of Vettel 

He was certainly exceptional - but 'true great' is as subjective as it gets. I think in time, an interesting difference between Schumacher and Vettel will become apparent - people will warm to Vettel whereas people went off Schumacher.

I suppose that depends on his behaviour.

Remember, at Vettel's age Schumacher had just 1 WDC. Ten WDCs is not out of the question for this young man - maybe he'll be regarded better then.

Ah, there you go with statistics again...look at it another way.  Vettel won his first WDC in his 3rd year in F1.  Well gee-wizz, so did Schumacher.  Sure, Vettel has 4 on the trot, but Schumacher actually had the guts to leave a successful team and move to a struggling team to help build the team into a winner.  Let's see Vettel jump into a Mclaren or better yet, a Williams and see if he can keep it up. 

Vettel could well be a 10x champion at some point, but unless Mr. Newey stays in F1 for another 6 years (which is questionable, as he has always had more of a passion for yacht design, and he's pretty much accomplished everything a designer could hope to in F1), I suppose it will take him at least as many years to do it as Schumacher.

Wanna bet?

(I don't really mind what on)

 

[Scott]

Already laid it out...I bet Brawn will be at Mclaren next year.  £25? 

[vintly]

Hehe nice try, methinks you know something here…

But, back to your replies to my earlier points - I feel compelled to reply:

Regarding Vettel in the best car - yes of course RBR weren't the best car then, but they have been for ages and Seb's kept his seat. Nuff said.

Regarding Schumacher / Vettel - which one I can't stand - exactly my point. Judging champions against each other is subjective… each to their own. One person's great is a another's arsehole.

You say, 'there you go with statistics again'. Eh? I am simply saying that Vettel is still very young, with time on his side, more so than ever before in the history of champions. In relation to whether he is or becomes a true great, this is a salient point.

And as for statistics, this is my 800th post, so there.

[Scott]

I'm just having fun with you regarding statistics.  I rate Vettel very high on the grid, but as a sportsman, I really don't like him.  As to if he is 'One of the Great's', I'll wait a few years before I give my vote...until now he's been exceptionally lucky (to be at Red Bull during he time they built the best cars), and just in general by having very few DNF's, mechanical, or just getting hit by someone, and to his credit, he's made the best of it.  It has only been in RBR's best interest to keep him in that seat though, he's done (almost) everything they've asked of him.  They would have been stupid to replace him as long as everything goes right for him. 

I don't hope he keeps on winning though, for two reasons, the good of the sport, and because a drivers talent comes through fir the fans much more when they are struggling with the car - just look at Alonso over the past two years.

[vintly]

Yes I'd like to see him in a sub-standard car, vis-a-vis Alonso recently, agreed. Digging out results with the odds against would certainly help with his public image!

I don't think anyone can be a true great at his age, whatever they do.

Hopefully next season the chasing pack might be more than just that.

[Scott]

I still think a PR win for him would be to either sit out Q next couple of races, or stick it in the wall in Q1 (better yet, have a mysterious alternator failure), and watch the fun in the race when he starts from the back.   

[Jericoke]

Let's be fair about what Schumacher did... he went to one of the richest sporting outfits in the world to become the highest paid athlete in the world, becoming the lynchpin of a dream team which set out to restore Ferrari to the pinnacle of F1. 

EX-Sqeeze ME?  I can't imagine Ferrari's budget being all that much bigger than RBR and STR combined, and even if it is/was, financially the RBR stable was and is hardly struggling.  What team in F1 has paid for 4 cars on the grid and in fact had to do it while funding two separate factories??  If Vettel had a decent manager he would be getting Alonso bucks at RBR by now.

You're trying to tell me Enstone has more money for drivers than Ferrari?  Even when Flavio was pulling the strings, they ran on a tight budget.  I'm sure that MS went where the money was.  (I can't say I blame him)

Vettel took a risk going to RBR and sticking with RBR.  After all, STR was a race winning car when he made the move, and RBR was not.

I can't imagine any driver thinking they are taking a 'risk' joining an outfit that is producing a Newey designed car.  Come on Jeri, you aren't seriously saying it was a risk for Vettel to leave STR and move to RBR.   

Newey's last championship car was in 1998... when Vettel was ELEVEN years old. 

Just because Newey used to be good was no guarantee he could keep up with modern CFD designed cars.

(I will admit it's a little disingenius to suggest that going from STR to RBR is a step down... but Ferrari DID win in 1995 before MS joined them in 1996.  Not like Vettel going from a winning team to a team that had only won once, two owners ago.)

I don't see McLaren as a good fit for Vettel.  I know that RBR isn't the 'anti-McLaren' they used to be, but still, Vettel isn't going to settle down and toe the line for any team. 

Not many people thought Ferrari would be a good fit for an arrogant German either.  But my point was really that Schumacher left a team that he was comfortable with and joined one that was very foreign to him.

I can't speak to that.

I knew nothing of F1 history or politics at the time.  For me, Ferrari and MS are synonymous (along with Brawn and Todt).

[Monty]

Being deliberately mischievous - wasn't Newey's last championship car in 2012?

[Scott]

You're trying to tell me Enstone has more money for drivers than Ferrari?  Even when Flavio was pulling the strings, they ran on a tight budget.  I'm sure that MS went where the money was

I'm trying to tell you they could if they wanted to, that's the thing about self sponsorship with a billion dollar company, you can wrench it whichever way you want.  With Newey in place and Horner running the team (granted not proven in F1, but certainly proven in other series), many predicted they were the next dream team, and that's exactly what has happened.

Newey's last championship car was in 1998... when Vettel was ELEVEN years old. 
Just because Newey used to be good was no guarantee he could keep up with modern CFD designed cars.

  That was only 7 years before he joined F1, not really so long before.  The fact that Newey had already done it at two different teams in different eras makes him a bit of a ringer (and in hindsight, it was a given).  CFD was first used in F1 in '93, and Mclaren had their own program before Newey even joined, so he was already quite comfortable using it.  Even if he liked to start with the design on paper, it was used extensively in the design process.

Ferrari in '96 was also in a rebuild situation, so nothing was sure when Schumacher and Brawn joined...they had a plan, but it was still a big risk to leave a proven team like Benetton.

[Dare]

MS left Benetton after 2 WDC's when they were on top
their game.Had he stayed instead of going to a at the
time dog Ferrari he may have added a few more titles
to his name.Now if Vettel would go to Williams and put
them back to their former glory I'd be impressed

[Irisado]

It was certainly no gamble for Vettel to leave Toro Rosso.  It was clear that the team would fall back in the pecking order once customer cars were banned, so there really was no risk.  Red Bull had shown lots of flashes of promise, and were on an upward curve in terms of performance.  The big question mark was always reliability, but now that everything runs like clockwork, apart from the KERS system and the odd alternator, there's really no stopping Red Bull, unless the tyres don't suit their car, and don't have to be changed.

Regardless of how many championships Vettel wins, he will never be a great because of his attitude, and the fact that his car has been so superior to those driven by the opposition at most of the races.  I still think that he's incapable of winning consistently if he doesn't qualify in the top three, but because his car is so fast, that's just not going to happen, and it's all just so easy for him when he's in the lead.

[Jericoke]

MS left Benetton after 2 WDC's when they were on top
their game.Had he stayed instead of going to a at the
time dog Ferrari he may have added a few more titles
to his name.Now if Vettel would go to Williams and put
them back to their former glory I'd be impressed

As evidenced by Benetton's zero wins in the season after Schumacher departed?

I think the 'risk' we're all looking for isn't Schumacher taking a pile of money and joining the dream team at Ferrari.  It's Damon Hill taking a pile of money and trying to prove that he could win in a small team at Arrows... or Jacques Villeneuve taking enough money to fund Marussia Caterham and HRT so he could build a team with his ski instructor.

It's all part of the game though.  If RBR is as driver friendly as they're made out to be, why would Vettel go anywhere else?  If he went to Williams, it would be to glad hand sponsors so they could afford to build a winning car.  Is that what he wants?  (Maybe it is, I never asked him)