`Andretti/Cadillac

[lkjohnson1950]

Michael Andretti dropped a veritable nuclear bomb on F1 today, announcing that Andretti Motorsports would partner with Cadillac to enter F1. No details were announced that I've found, no mention if this would end their intention of using Renault engines. Lots of speculation and rumors of course.

[Jericoke]

Reading GM's half of the news release, it sounds like they're willing to work with IndyCar rival (and Andretti IndyCar supplier) Honda until they can get their own power unit ready.

If Cadillac does make gains via F1, I wonder if Ford and Chrysler will get involved (Chrysler is technically involved, as they are brand siblings with Alfa Romeo).

Overall, I hope Andretti gets into the sport, and does well.  It's a great name that belongs in F1, and a great organization that loves racing.

[lkjohnson1950]

If they work with Honda will they get R/B transmissions? How much will they try to do in house and how much will they outsource? Lots of questions here?

[John S]

I reckon it's more likely Andretti has a tie up with Renault, he announced a long way back that he had an F1 engine supplier lined up long before Honda committed to the new 26 rule set as a manufacturer.

He may have changed his mind but can't see it somehow since the new gen Renault PU is now on par with the rest, maybe even better when reliability is ironed out.

[Jericoke]

What is with the existing teams being Anti Andretti?

I sort of get why small teams like Williams and especially Haas will feel threatened.  They're the most likely to lose out on sponsorship.

But Horner and Wolf are coming out strongly against Andretti.  They are worried that Andretti/Cadillac will 'dilute' F1 as a brand.  While teams run by former F1 drivers tend not to do well, most of those teams are vanity projects, not a team that that has been operating continuously, and competitively, since 1993... and as Andretti Autosport since 2001.

How is that going to 'dilute' F1?

RBR was founded in 1996 as Stewart.  Mercedes was founded as BAR in 1999.  They don't even have the racing history that Andretti Autosport has.

I certainly hope that F1 is careful about who they let in.  The three teams added in 2010 all had the rugs pulled out from under them, and they were in no position to compete in F1.  That can't happen again.  But to see Andretti as some fly by night organization while it's okay for Audi, who unlike Andretti have never raced in F1, to buy a team that has won a single F1 race (powered by Audi's rival) is somehow growing the sport?

[lkjohnson1950]

I think they feel Andretti is a bit of a loudmouth. And Audi buying a team is OK because Audi sticks to a form of racing for a long time, which Cadillac has not done and by buying a team they are not diluting the money. What they really don't want is more than 10 teams. Personally I say let anyone who can pay the fee enter. There were no restrictions in the past.

[John S]

Think the truth of the matter is the FIA were encouraged to open invitations for new teams to give Porsche a fall back position since they seem to be having trouble getting onto the grid. I base this on the assumption that there must have been discussion or at least disclosure to Liberty/FOM before they issued public invitations of interest.
FIA have after all made it abundently clear that invite of interest does not necessarily mean extra teams will get in - unless you are a big European car manufacturer of course.   

However there could also be a power struggle going on behind the scenes between Ben Sulayem at FIA and Domenicali for just who is in charge of F1 - the owner & rule maker FIA.... or promoter FOM/Liberty?

We see more and more stuff around the direction that F1 takes being fronted by FOM/Liberty through Domenicali. This new invite for new teams may also be a public slap in the face for Domenicali which is why he is so against it...... and is marshalling teams against it to boot. 

[lkjohnson1950]

Could just be a bit of Anti-American sentiment there too. There are a number of Europeans who think America and Americans are uncouth, boorish, loud, smug, and generally uncivilized.

[Jericoke]

Could just be a bit of Anti-American sentiment there too. There are a number of Europeans who think America and Americans are uncouth, boorish, loud, smug, and generally uncivilized.

Canadians think it too 

Sure, we'll hold three races in the USA, the single largest market for Mercedes, Ferrari and probably Red Bull, but not REALLY include the Americans.  Anti Americanism might be the cover, but Cadillac is serious about becoming an international brand, which would eat into Mercedes, Audi and probably even Ferrari sales if successful.  Further, Andretti IS a winning organization.  Wolff and Horner have gotten where they have on the back of virtually unlimited chequebooks.  Even if there's a cap now, so much of the RBR and Mercedes empires were built before that, and they're hoping to coast/build on that that for years.  Bringing in someone who knows how to win, with a vast team, like Andretti, it can make Horner and Wolff look foolish.

(Certainly I don't expect Andretti to win and make the establishment look foolish in their first season.  But why take the risk?)

(I also agree that the $200 million 'anti dilution fee' might be a little out of date.  Liberty really HAS helped the sport grow, including the value of a team.  But if you're going to sign a deal saying $200 million is price of admission, you've got to honour that deal.  I'm guessing Liberty wants Andretti in, but is staying silent, otherwise a reevaluation of the Concorde with a higher entry fee would be rubber stamped by now)

[cosworth151]

I've had a feeling from the first announcement that this wasn't going to happen. It just seemed like the deck was stacked against Andretti from the start.

Could just be a bit of Anti-American sentiment there too. There are a number of Europeans who think America and Americans are uncouth, boorish, loud, smug, and generally uncivilized.

What'ch y'all expect? I'm a hillbilly! 

[rmassart]

(Certainly I don't expect Andretti to win and make the establishment look foolish in their first season.  But why take the risk?)

The last time anyone came into F1 and started winning seriously was Mercedes after buying out Brawn. Before them it was RedBull. Before them, well I don't remember anyone. Brawn lucked in with their diffuser as far as I remember and earlier than that you are looking at established teams.

So basically the success rate of new teams coming in is basically zero unless they essentially have unlimited funds. I am not sure the cost cap changes that, which I know is some weird logic from me. Andretti might well be a successful established team in the US, but quite frankly unless they get Arab oil level of unlimited backing I don't give them a chance at all to achieve anything much beyond the odd race win. I hope I am wrong...

Sorry if that sounds pessimistic, but it's the reality of sport nowadays. I've seen it in the UK football. Fans no longer worry about which manager and players represent their team, but whether the arab fund that has bought their team really has the capacity to fund it to the tune of hundreds of millions a year in order to win something in 10 years time (ie invest 1 billion in a team before you see some silverware)

(I also agree that the $200 million 'anti dilution fee' might be a little out of date.  Liberty really HAS helped the sport grow, including the value of a team.  But if you're going to sign a deal saying $200 million is price of admission, you've got to honour that deal.  I'm guessing Liberty wants Andretti in, but is staying silent, otherwise a reevaluation of the Concorde with a higher entry fee would be rubber stamped by now)

I fully disagree with the way this is run. It's like the breakaway league they tried in Europe last year. Established teams trying lock in their future rewards. No, let anyone attempt to compete in F1 and as long as they have a car able to run within 107% of the leader, they get to qualify.

[Jericoke]

I fully disagree with the way this is run. It's like the breakaway league they tried in Europe last year. Established teams trying lock in their future rewards. No, let anyone attempt to compete in F1 and as long as they have a car able to run within 107% of the leader, they get to qualify.

In principle I agree with you, keeping F1 'closed' is clearly there to make sure only people 'in the club' make the money.  However it's hard to argue with Bernie's idea that only teams who are prepared to run an entire F1 season with reasonable machinery are allowed it.  You wouldn't go to a football game not knowing what teams were playing, it's not unreasonable to expect the same for a race. 

Unlike football, F1 racing is a very technical, very dangerous, very expensive endeavor.  Allowing anyone with a car to show up and try to prove themselves is dangerous, so it IS a good idea to limit who can enter the sport.  They just need to make the process of who can enter a given season more open.  Set a threshold on both financial and technical grounds.  You can even force existing teams to prove they belong in F1 season over season.  Maybe let all comers attend pre season testing, and anyone who makes 107% of the top time is in, anyone who doesn't is out (allowing for a cap of 13 teams or whatever, and a minimum of 9 or whatever)

[cosworth151]

The only way I can see that working in this day and age would be to allow customer cars. Cars have to go through a number of crash & safety tests to compete in F1. There's no way an average privateer could afford to do that. That's why IndyCar became a spec racer series.

[John S]

The only way I can see that working in this day and age would be to allow customer cars. Cars have to go through a number of crash & safety tests to compete in F1. There's no way an average privateer could afford to do that. That's why IndyCar became a spec racer series.

Whoa there Cossie!    I for one wouldnt sign up for customer or spec cars in F1.
If new teams can't build there own they don't belong on the grid at any cost.   

[cosworth151]

I wasn't suggesting spec F1, just explaining why IndyCar went that route. I was thinking of having a 3rd party manufacturer provide cars that privateers could purchase. Dallara is already building the chassis for Haas.