Targa Florio 1972

[Dare]

Vic Elford talks about The Targa Florio in
which our own joknbull competed




http://youtube.com/watch?v=5wnZq9KBBfc

[johnbull]

Thanks for the memories mate.

While at it I also watched the vid of the 65 Targa. It was the first one we attended. We went every year after that till it stopped being a World championship event in 73, and of course I did it in 72.

Myth and folklore have it that Leo Kinnunen, although he had the official lap record for the 47 mile circuit, actually bettered it on the Thursday prior to the event - on the open road with the works 908 T.

The first pic of Elford at the dinner table was taken at the Hotel Santa Lucia in Cefalu, which used to be the Porsche teram HQ. The Santa Lucia is still there today, and still very much as it was then.

I visited the Targa on my motorcycle with my wife last November and again last May with a couple of friends who we used to go with every year. There are a couple of very good Targa Florio museums, one in Cerda and one in Collesano. The Cerda museum actually had a pic of my car which the owner promptly asked me to sign. On my return in May I took a few more pics with me to give the guy. He was delighted and I am sure they are now there with his many wonderful exhibits.

Oh there are so many stories, I could write a book about it.

Wife and I will be holidaying in Sicily again late September, again with the bike, and I will no doubt do another obligatory lap. What fun. I can't wait.

Thanks for the lovely memories. I'll put some pics in here tomorrow morning when I get to the office.

[Dare]

My pleasure johnbull.Maybe you could
give us others members some stories
on some of the drivers you met and know

[johnbull]

There weren't many people around at the Targa that could speak both English and Italian fluently, so we were always very welcome with the British contingent there.  We became very pally with Targa regulars Martin Davidson and Jack Wheeler. They used to do the trip down to Sicily every year, racing a Sprite originally but later it was rebodied and called a Gerboa. We became very pally with them as well as most of the other Brits and Finns.

I got married in 73 and missed the Targa trip but my brother and other friends went. They met up with Rauno Aaltonen and Tony Fall who it turned out were planning a couple of days in Malta after the event, so i met them at the airport and they joined me to dinner one evening.

One year John Chatham came down with his MGC. The italian scrutineer refused to let him take part, saying the car should have a 4 cylinder engine and not a 6. He was obviously thinking MGB. Eventually we discussed the matter with the race officials on John's behalf and came to a compromise which at least allowed him to race. They accepted him in the 3 litre Prototype class - up with the works Porsche 908Ts, Ferrari 312s and Alfa 33s. But at least he took part.

The Targa had a 47 mile lap. Most of it was mountains, but towards the end of the lap, as you dropped from Collesano, down to Campo Felice and then down along the coast you got on to the 6 kilometre Bonfornello straight. Now this was an absolute killer because how on earth with a 4 speed gearbox, do you gear for both the mountains and the Bonfornello. The simple answer is YOU CAN'T. You have to compromise. That Bonfornello was actually my undoing. Through the main road at Campo Felice I noticed I was catching an Italian driving an Alpine. Out of the village and down the mountain I got closer and closer. We got onto the Bonfornello straight nose to tail and I tucked in right behind him. Unfortunately i got carried away. He obviously had a higher top speed (5 speed box). About 3/4 of the way down the straight I cooked the engine and had to retire with a holed piston.

There are so many other lovely stories but it's past my bedtime (midnight here) so I'll leave them for another day.

Good night all.

[Steven Roy]

Facinating tosee the deifferent attitude compared to now.  Elford mentions he crashed into a local's car during a practise lap like it was nothing.  Can't imagine anything like that now. 

He looks so exposed in that car but I guess it only looks scary in hindsight.

One of the links next to the film was for a compilation of Senna's first F1 tests.  Very interesting even if he does speak Portuguese and the sub-titles appear to be Greek.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=w2wYoKsdtj0&mode=related&search=

The top link was for film of Jo Bonnier's fatal crash.  I don't know how he died but I can't watch the film.

[f1box]

The top link was for film of Jo Bonnier's fatal crash.  I don't know how he died but I can't watch the film.

I haven't watched the clip - and don't intend to. The following is a synopsis of the information given in 'Grand Prix Requiem' by William Court

Jo died, aged 42, driving a Lola T280 during Le Mans in 1972.

Having lead early in the race, for a few laps, the car had fallen down the field.
at around 8 o'clock on the Sunday morning.
Jo clipped a slower Ferrari whilst trying to lap it on the approach to  'Indianapolis' and lost control of the car. The car flew into the air and Jo was thrown out, the car then exploded on impact with the ground.

David

[Dare]

Steven Roy,here's one of my favorite Senna vids.It's
at Monaco and it really shows the sense of speed as
as well as Senna working the car

http://youtube.com/watch?v=q2KfCtTcG0k

[Steven Roy]

Dare,
That link is for the Vic Elford film.


The two links below show 17 mins from the '65 Targa.  Does anyone know why so many of the cars including the Vaccarella/Bandini Ferrari have the driver on the right hand side?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hnnfwg_Tu2Y&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sbnk0aMJghs&mode=related&search=

[Dare]

Steven Roy,don't know whay happened,but I
changed it to Senna,look again,sorry

http://youtube.com/watch?v=q2KfCtTcG0k

[Steven Roy]

I really enjoyed that lap.  I sometime wonder if Senna spoke like that naturally or if it was something he cultivated.  He seemed to be able to say things that others had said many times in the past but when he said it, it seemed to have a mystical quality.

I can't understand why anyone put music on that clip when there is such a clear engine noise.

You may like the following clip which shows Senna testing the Honda NSX at Suzuka.  The film quality outside the car is not very good but as long as you know the circuit or can follow the map it doesn't detract too much.  It is interesting to see someone of that ability in a road car. 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=izaWlKxVo1A

[Dare]

Steven.see how Jackis S handles Monaco.This
is actually Jackie testing a Tyrell in 1978,5 years
after he retired


http://youtube.com/watch?v=vnc6p3YOg9Q


and JS driving a Benneton turbo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v4EnjJ5DP70&mode=related&search=

[johnbull]

The two links below show 17 mins from the '65 Targa.  Does anyone know why so many of the cars including the Vaccarella/Bandini Ferrari have the driver on the right hand side?

Most of the sports cars of the time were right hand drive. Possibly because there were more British / Australian drivers driving them.

Interestingly, the GT40 that a friend had here in Malta, and which was kept in my garage and maintained by me, was also right hand drive. We were supposed to be doing the Targa in 72 with that but the owner chickened out, so I kept my entry and entered with my own car.

Incidentally, that yellow GT40 was the same one Ford had made available to International motoring journalists to test. Check it out in Motorsport and other magazines of the time. Willy Green bought it and sold it to my friend Carol. She kept it for a couple of years then sold it back to Green.

I had alot of fun with that car.

[cosworth151]

Most road courses run in a clockwise direction. This means that most of the turns are to the right. Building the car as right hand drive gives the driver a beter view of these corners. Audi is one of the few prototype cars even today to be left hand drive. No one is quite sure why. Julian Cooper, chief engineer for Lola, has some thoughts on the subject:

“Why Audi continues to put the driver on the left, I don’t really know. They tune absolutely everything to give them the best technical advantage, and the obvious thing is to put the driver on the inside of the corners.”

One reason is the drivers. Teams face a disadvantage when drivers have to adapt themselves to an unfamiliar side of the car. Whether it’s a British driver adjusting to the left or a French driver adjusting to the right, it takes a certain amount of time to gauge the precise edges of the car. Allan McNish was the only Brit among nine Audi drivers at Le Mans, so Audi’s left-hand drive makes sense if the team wants to cater to the majority. But Cooper, who has seen many drivers adapt to the British Lola, believes drivers aren’t the main consideration.

“What they’ll typically do is go over a curb in one direction and miss the apex in the other,” Cooper said. “It’s not really a problem. It’s just something for the driver to get used to. And they do, so it wasn’t actually as big of a problem as I thought.”

The GT cars are built left hand drive to more closely mirror their showroom counterparts.

Cos

[Steven Roy]

I understand the weight distribution advantage of having the driver on the right.  It seems odd that anyone ever moved away from that. 

Any decent driver can adapt quickly from sitting on one side of the car to sitting on the other.  It takes a little time to adjust but once you get used to it switching from one to the other is no big deal.  I have never tried left hand drive on the track but on the road it only takes a few hours to adjust.  The inital problem is having a door on your left where normally you have space and the opposite on the other side.  So one side feels cramped and the other exposed.

Then it is a question of adjusting your brain to where you sit in a lane so that you don't drift across to where your used to being.  Normally you set yourself up off-centre one way so that the car is central.  The only long term problem I have is that for decades I have looked up and left for my mirror and since it is almost an involutary action it is difficult to look right.

The only other issue is the same one you have when you first drive a single seater.  The gear lever is on the wrong side but that only takes a few changes to become second nature.

I have driven right hand drive and left hand drive cars in the UK and Europe so I have tried every combination.  I can't see that it would be very difficult to adjust on the track.

It is a bit like people who think it is impossible to brake with their left foot.  Put them in a kart where they have no option and they do it without realising it is even an issue.

I have seen the two JYS videos before.  You have to wonder how he can get into something like the Benetton and give them so much good information.  I am sure they were only looking for a little bit of publicity and instead they get a load of useful info.

The following clips show JYS driving a Penske Indy 500 winner and bending a TWR Jaguar.