F1 progress.

[johnbull]

I know quite a few of the GP WIZ regulars have been ardent followers of Grand Prix racing for a number of years.

Like everything else, Formula 1 has changed considerably from day 1, but do you think those changes have made it better or worse?

What do you consider to be the greatest era of Formula 1.

What prompted me to ask these questions was an article I was reading last evening in "Motorsport" about the Lotus 78. It brought back so many memories of the great Colin Chapman.

Was he the greatest designer of all times? I think we're all in agreement that he was the most innovative.

Over to you lot.

[Monty]

As a spectator I think we are just moving out of the worst period of F1 history. However, I still think that F1 has a long way to go to become the sport it once was. When I watch any racing I want to believe the best driver can get to the front from anywhere on the grid. In F1 this simply isn't the case. Races are won and lost in qualifying or in pit stops. Mostly the ability to win is a direct function to budget but there is one thing that could be changed which would at least increase overtaking on the track. This would be strict control of aero packages. In the distant history I moved from Formula Ford to Formula 3 and couldn't believe the difference the wings made. You could set your car up to stick like glue forgetting that when you were in the pack the 'dirty' air changes everything. In F1, the cars just cannot run close to the back of another car so overtaking becomes almost impossible. So; in my ideal world I would restrict aero packages, ban refueling during pit stops and (once overtaking has been re-established) set the grid in a way that penalises the top six drivers in the championship (my idea is that they would all qualify and then the top driver would be moved down 6places from his qualifying position, the second driver by 5places, the 3rd placed driver by 4places, etc. Then we would see some overtaking!)

[romephius]

Not bad Monty.....but just a slight thing with your idea for qualifying.......if the top 6 qualified in the 1-6 order you idea would mean that all of them would be in 7th position.......  I know it's a stupid thought of mine.......I just found it funny..... the rest is all good mate.....

as always I am tired and may have read it incorrectly, but I am too lazy tonight to read it again

Rom

[Monty]

I'm a manager.......I let my team deal with the details (or cover up my c*ck-ups)

[romephius]

HAHAHAHA..........That's awesome Monty..........laughed myself silly with that one....coz that's what my manager says he keeps me employed for....let's hope your staff don't think your a 'seagull manager'......take it easy mate

Rom

[johnbull]

I agree with most of Monty's post, except for the qualifying bit. I want to see an honest to goodness, unadulterated F1. I don't want to see the nonsense we have right now where cars are quicker in Q2 than they are in Q3, yet the quickest in Q3 starts on pole. It's false. The fastest guy should be on pole. No messing.

I agree less aerodynamics will help the overtaking situation as I believe steel brakes, foot clutches, and proper gear levers without automatic gizmos will.

I would like to see races without false pit stops. I would like to see tyres that last a whole race, and I would like to see cars overtake on the track not in the pits.

Dare I say I'm just dreaming? It was like that in the past. Most of you on here are old enough to remember. It could happen today.

Anyone remember Clark / Monza / 1967 ? That's what I call pure, unadulterated F1.

[Dare]

johnbull,here's a little item talking about Jim
Clark's setup during the 67 season

Alan McCall: “We only changed Jimmy's new Lotus 49 twice during the whole 1967 season. At the German GP I tightened the very small rear bar up half an inch to reduce the understeer. He did one lap, came in, and asked for it to be changed back. At Silverstone for the British GP, it was decided to give the front wheel more negative camber to help him round 180mph Woodcote where it was pushing a bit towards the grass. We went up from a quarter to a third of a degree ... I was the first to get to his car after the race and he jumped out put his arm round my shoulder, but he didn't say hello, good car or anything - he just said: "That was a mistake, get it out of the front, will you...". And he'd just won the Grand Prix



A little off topic,but what the heck,back in the early 70's I bought
a pair of Jim Clark driving gloves.I'd do anything if I would.nt have
lost them

[Dare]

short,but brings back memories


http://youtube.com/watch?v=cU-Rr81hkiM

[johnbull]

Dare, I see you're as much a Jim Clark fan as I am.

I have a print in the hallway at home, of Jimmy winning the Dutch GP in 67 with the Lotus 49 DFV.

The print is signed by the artist and by Keith Duckworth. It was a birthday present from the missus a few years ago. She's learning!

[Monty]

Showing our respective ages here guys!
There have been more recent greats. Obviously Senna; Prost had his moments; Shuey was brilliant (but so arogant); Hill (Junior) in his early years was a demon (or Damon) overtaker. For me one of the best was my one and only visit to Monaco when Mansell did that brilliant overtaking move as he came out of the tunnel.
I'm sure we would all agree the driving talent has always been great. It just shows in different ways in the different eras. I am still convinced everyone would benefit if the cars relied on mechanical grip instead of aero grip. Personally I loved every minute of watching young Winkelhock. It was obvious he was going to be slow but it was great fun watching the huge oversteer slides.

[cosworth151]

Maybe because it was the era I grew up in, but my favorite time was the mid to late 60's 3 liter years. Pre adverts and pre aero. Clark, Hill, Gurney, Surtees, Brabham, McLaren and so may more. The long tracks at Nurburgring and Spa. If only the cars and tracks had been safer. So many died so young.

I agree that there have been great drivers in every era, from Fangio to Fernando. What a pleasure to be able to see them all drive, either live or on film.

[Dare]

Maybe it was the era combined with lack of
news coverage thay made 60's f1 so exotic
to me and many Americans,and I'd bet
that includes Cos

[johnbull]

For probably the same reasons as Dare, Sossie and Monty, I share the same opinion of the 60s and early 70s being my favorite era.

You see, these guys were the heroes of my youth.

I consider myself so lucky to have been in a position to have seen most of them perform, either when I was "studying" in UK in 1967, or on the many occasions we travelled across Europe following the GP scene.

Those were the days.

[Chameleon]

Being the same age as just about everyone else, I guess it's inevitable that I, too, would cite the sixties as being the high spot of F1.  But not the early seventies.  Those blasted wings spoiled it for me, making the cars ugly and ungainly looking.

I got over it, however, and became used to the darn things, especially as the regulations made them smaller and more integral with the bodywork.  There was a second great period for me, the first half of the eighties - the ground effect era.  That was when the cars stopped looking so clumsy and began to adopt very clean and simple lines again.

As for drivers, I think I agree that there are great ones in every age.  Strangely, since he was well beyond the periods I have mentioned, I think Senna was without equal.  Yes, Fangio, Clark, Stewart and Nuvolari (from what I've read) were superb drivers but Senna was somehow more.  Watching old videos of the drivers I've mentioned, I know how they made the car behave like that - but Senna was sometimes beyond understanding.  He created the drivers we have today by introducing things that had never been thought of before - now everyone has to know them.

And also he was...

Well... Senna.

[rmassart]

I guess I'm a little younger than most of you, but I think the 80s was just fantastic compared to what we have now (I can't speak for earlier as that's before my time). If I look back at who won the championhip in 80s: Lauda, Prost, Senna, Piquet. From 83  to 91 all world champions ended up being tripple world champions which surely shows the strength of the field at the time.

I think the "takeover" of F1 by the manufacturers is destroying the sport a little.  It's obvious that they are not interested in giving power to the drivers. They want to know that if they build the fastest car, they win. They don't want some young Senna turning up in an ageing Lotus and driving circles round superior cars.  Just this weekend in the Turkish GP I had to stop watching before the end, and I caught myself thinking "Ok, just watch the last round of pit stops and then you can go". Nothing much of interest happened on the track for the whole race (LH front right tyre excepted), so I knew whoever was out front after the last pit stops would win. How boring is that?