Will Vettel still look good in a slower car?

[John S]

That's the question Ross Brawn poses, the Jury is still out.                            
There is no doubt that the Red Bull car has been the superior car in the last two years, ok reliability let them down a bit last year however the car has clearly been the one to beat. Seb managed to put on a good show in the Torro Rosso before moving to RBR, but it should be remembered that STR shared a chassis with the main RBR team at the time.
I guess only time will tell if Vettel is the best of a generation or has simply enjoyed the best equipment to get his titles. At this moment I am not convinced that Seb has the potential to develop a car, maybe though that's just because his team have not let us know of his off track contribution and input. How does anyone else read it?

Brawn says driving a slower car will be Vettel's biggest challenge in F1

Sebastian Vettel's greatest challenge in Formula 1 will not be in maintaining his dominance after back-to-back titles, but in how he deals with one day not having the best car.

That is the view of Mercedes GP team principal Ross Brawn, who believes that the true extent of Vettel's position among the greats will be made evident when does not enjoy a machinery advantage.

"For Sebastian, what will come now, which will be an interesting phase of his career, will be when he has not got the best car," explained Brawn, who famously helped Michael Schumacher turn around Ferrari after he joined the team following back-to-back titles for Benetton.

"I think you have a fantastic driver in the best car, and that combination is unbeatable. It will be interesting to see Sebastian's role, Sebastian's influence, Sebastian's position when perhaps he does not have the best car, he has to make it the best car, and has to create the best car.

"That will be another chapter of Sebastian Vettel when it comes - and it will come.

Extract from a longer piece by Jonathan Noble, Autosport.com, Today.

[Monty]

It shouldn't be forgotten that Red Bull built the 2011 car around Seb. That is why Mark has struggled this year. When a team concentrates on a number one driver (like Ferrari did for Schumacher over a number of years) it is easier to get to a dominating position.
Vettel has always been a good driver but he certainly wasn't 'the best' in the lower ranks. Perhaps he has got a great deal better but on the very rare occassions I see him in the pack his driving looks scrappy and he makes mistakes (this at least proves he is human!).
My guess is that if he was dropped in to any car that was not made specifically for him he would struggle. He doesn't seem to be able to drive around problems in the car. But to be fair, he hasn't had to for the last two years!

[Canada Darrell™]

Was the car built specifically for him? I'd like to read somewhere where a team principle says that on record. Last I checked it took 2 drivers to bring home a constructors title.

We can speculate all we want on how he'll look in a slower car but we can use history to answer that question.....pretty poorly (relatively speaking to when they were on top) I'd say. It really does come down then to comparing how the greats look against their teammates in virtually identical cars.

Vettel vs. Webber
Alonso vs. Massa
Schumi vs. The Whiner Barrichello, Irvine, Herbert

[Dare]

Was the car built specifically for him? I'd like to read somewhere where a team principle says that on record. Last I checked it took 2 drivers to bring home a constructors title.

We can speculate all we want on how he'll look in a slower car but we can use history to answer that question.....pretty poorly (relatively speaking to when they were on top) I'd say. It really does come down then to comparing how the greats look against their teammates in virtually identical cars.

Vettel vs. Webber
Alonso vs. Massa
Schumi vs. The Whiner Barrichello, Irvine, Herbert

Alono vs Fisichella-Fisichella if allowed would have cut into
                            Alonso's total og GP wins

Alonso vs Trulli-Trulli won Renault's virst GP.He made the
                        mistake of beating Flav's boy to it

[Jericoke]

When was the last time a driver won the championship without having a clearly superior car?

Schumacher really squeezed a lot of performance out of Ferrari for 4 years before winning the championship, but by 2000, the Ferrari and McLaren were at least equals.

I do agree that the 'teammate' argument doesn't always hold water.  Teams might not admit to having a number one driver, but it makes sense to have the car fit one driver like a glove, than have the car suit nobody in particular.  For example, even I don't think that Jacques Villeneuve was twice as good as HH Frentzen.

Having the best driver helps, but I believe that given the right car, that any one of the champions on the grid could be champions again.  Plus Rosberg and (hopefully) Kubica.  The difference at this level isn't the driver, the difference is the car.

[Ian]

It would be interesting to see what any of the WDC's on the grid could do with the HRT or Virgin cars.

[Scott]

Now that would be an exhibition race I'd pay to see - even on TV. 

Reverse the cars and drivers based on WDC and do an exhibition race.  Wouldn't that be fun, and give the team owners a second look at what they're paying for.  It would also give everyone a better look at the back of the pack drivers.

[Dare]

A great driver will beat a good driver in the same car

example-Vettel and Webber

example-Vettel and Boudais

[Monty]

A great driver will beat a good driver in the same car

example-Vettel and Webber

of course we will never know but I still think there is (anecdotal) evidence that the 2011 RB was built around Seb. I honestly think Webber is as good (perhaps there are flaws in his character but speaking of pure racing skill). If they were presented with identical, unbiased cars I think Webber may win. Problem is, this will never happen (certainly not at Red Bull).

[stealthhaggis]

Pretty sure Vettel looked pretty damn good in the old Minardi Toro Rosso, on occasions when the playing field was levelled he performed admirably, even won. The lad is class, still don't rate his overtaking ability mainly because he does seem to play it safe and the fact we have rarly had a chance to see it.

I do not think he would have won the title in a McLaren or Ferrari this year for example. I really hope next season we have the 4 top teams battling it out, each right up there with the other, then we will see how good they are.

For me this season Jenson is the next best driver after Vettel, then Alonso. Alonso and Vettel both have their teams backing so do not really have any challenge from their number 2 drivers, Button has beaten Hamilton in Hamilton's own team. Been very impressed with him. The problem Vettel has is that everyone knows that Webber is number 2 so there is always going to be that doubt about whether he is that good, the same as there is with Schumacher.

Alonso for me is the best driver in F1 atm and put him in a Red Bull alongside Vettel and I am sure he would win 70% of the time. Problem Alonso has is the same as Vettel has and Schumacher did. He is always no1 and dare anyone cross him on that well, we know what happens! He has destroyed Massa, just like Schumacher did Rubens when he was at Ferrari. Vettel hasn't done that with Mark, yet, but like all great drivers he has made him look average on quite a few occasions. Mark's stock has dropped to such an extent that if he remains in his shadow for too long he will not be able to recover or find a team that will have him as their no. 1 without dropping down the field.

[Scott]

For me this season Jenson is the next best driver after Vettel, then Alonso.

My top three picks as well.  

Alonso for me is the best driver in F1 atm and put him in a Red Bull alongside Vettel and I am sure he would win 70% of the time. Problem Alonso has is the same as Vettel has and Schumacher did. He is always no1 and dare anyone cross him on that well, we know what happens!

What was amazing to me was he got so worked up about it, he even destroyed his own championship that year.  He probably could have beaten Hamilton and Kimi.

 

Mark's stock has dropped to such an extent that if he remains in his shadow for too long he will not be able to recover or find a team that will have him as their no. 1 without dropping down the field.

I don't think Webber's looking for another year after next.  Whenever Red Bull stops re-signing him, I think he'll just walk away from F1...job done.

[Jericoke]

Mark's stock has dropped to such an extent that if he remains in his shadow for too long he will not be able to recover or find a team that will have him as their no. 1 without dropping down the field.

I don't think Webber's looking for another year after next.  Whenever Red Bull stops re-signing him, I think he'll just walk away from F1...job done.

Tough to say.  I agree with you, but when you look at guys like Rubens and Schumacher (and Villeneuve) who refuse to give up, it's hard to say if ANY driver will gracefully go into retirement if they feel they can still endure the F1 grind.

I doubt Webber would gracefully step into an ambassador role for Red Bull like Coulthard did.  (Unless they steal from Snapple's advertising and start to campaign for being the #2 drink in the world...)

[lkjohnson1950]

Webber has said that this year's car does not fit him well, but also he does not feel he has gotten the best he could from it. I think he knows where he fits at RB and I agree that when he cannot race in a front running car, he will retire.

[Monty]

Button has beaten Hamilton in Hamilton's own team

I am a Button fan but I can't agree with this. Almost uniquely in the big teams Maclaren build identical cars and adjust to suit the physical needs of their drivers. As far as I understand the cars were the same for Mika / Coulthard; Alonso / Hamilton & Hamilton / Button. Indeed this was part of Alonso's complaints (he wasn't given number one benefits).

[Scott]

Hamilton has been suckling the Mclaren teet since he was 11 and had vanquished the hero Alonso.  Surely you don't think it was an even playing field when Button joined?  I don't think the tub was designed for him, but you can be certain the aero was built with his driving tastes in mind, which are not at all like Button's.